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Americas New Military Rifle Kicks Ass.

Discussion in 'Himalayan Imports' started by DannyinJapan, Aug 24, 2004.

  1. ohen cepel

    ohen cepel Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 19, 2002
    The second barrel is now gone. Too many problems with the programable round designed for it. Killed one guy at APG already.

    It's really just a G36. I have fired the G36 and in full auto it's much easier to control than the M16. Sight is nice, mags snap together which is neat. Recoil was low and without the M16 "boing" sound. It's a good updated rifle. The M16 is the longest serving battle rifle we have every had. I think it's time for it to go. Not to say the XM is the answer, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

    Yes, it's sad that we carry an Italian pistol, mostly Belgium M16's (FN), FN light machineguns, and soon a built in America German rifle. (They are building a plant right outside of Ft. Benning).

    We have killed our small arms industry so they simply can't compete. Not to mention that the other guys are mostly gov't sponsored businesses.

    One good part is that we (in a civy roll) may be able to get more Hk stuff in the US with the plant here.

    And one projection: the 6.8 is a great round but it won't go anywhere.

    My 2 cents.
  2. gravertom


    Jun 4, 2004
    I think the article said that the 20mm rounds are HE, and programable to burst at a preset range. in other words, you can have one blow up over top of a foxhole someone is hiding in. The magazine will hold 6 20 mm rounds. minimum arming distance 50-100 meters. Direct contact shaped charge rounds are planned too.

    Given the proverbial difficulty in programming VCR's, is this the weapon for us? :D

    Perhaps this is part of the "Army of one" concept.

    "I am a man, I am a small tank, I am a miniature piece of mobile artillery, I am an Army of one!(I've fallen, and I can't get up!!!! :eek: )"

    If it could fly and carry a small nuke, starship troopers here we come!

    BTW, didn't Ben Franklin propose that the continental army be armed with long bows and spears to take on the red coats? That would have been an interesting technological/military experiment!

  3. Bill Sanders

    Bill Sanders

    Aug 18, 2003
    There are two different weapons being discussed here as one. The XM8 is basicaly a modified G36 HK. It does not have the upper (Removable) 20 mm barrel, or the programing computer. The XM29 OICW, with the upper barrel, is a completely different creature. The upper barrel is basicly a 20mm grenade launcher, with high tech features.
    I don't care for either one. I don't think that either will last very long in a combat arena, nor do I think that they will be reliable. Especially the XM29, too many things added that could break. They must not be figuring in Mr. Murphy, and his famous (in-famous?) laws.
  4. stevomiller


    May 4, 2001
    45-70, the 6.5x39 (6.5 Grendel) is indeed a grandson of the 7.62x39 and a child of the PPC rounds. Both the Grendel and the PPC have less body taper than the older 7.62 round.

    Munk, the 6.8 Remington that the govt is checking out actually the same bore as the .270 Winchester (.277). It is, however, loaded w/ a fairly light for caliber bullet.

    Everything that I have seen shows that the Grendel is indeed the better of the two cartridges. I am thinking that I would like either a CZ or Charles Daly mini mauser w/20" barrel in the Grendel for wonking the little coastal deer we have out here now that my 13 year old is inhereting my .250 savage :)

  5. SilverFoxKnows


    Sep 25, 2002
    rail guns and particle beam cannons? Put the rail gun and PBC on a shoulder mounted gun cluster and a mini-missile launcher on the other shoulder of the Power Armor. :D Okay, maybe I watched too many Robotech episodes when I was younger.

  6. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    Thanks for clarifying, Stevo.

    What is the grain weight of the bullet? (remembering you can't reliably hunt big game with much less than 130 grains in .270, and below that ballistics and efficiency fall badly)

  7. DannyinJapan


    Oct 9, 2003

    That weapon 45-70 posted is the OICW! Not the new XM8!

    Look at the pic in the first post or its link.

    The OICW was a prototype only and a failure because of its 32,000$ price tag per unit.

    Heckler and Koch is now based in Virginia. They moved to the USA to sidestep the imports ban on assault rifles. (which was just an economic law, it had nothing to do with guns, per se)
  8. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    Danny, HK is not based in the US- it is based in Germany. The agreement to supply the US Military with weapons is contingent with manufacture in the US.

    I still don't like it. Wish Ruger had it.

  9. DannyinJapan


    Oct 9, 2003
    well, i dont know what they have in virginia, but they make HK guns and train military and law enforecement there.
    the building says "heckler and koch"

    you mean the mini-14?
    i love that gun, i really do.
  10. Thomas Linton

    Thomas Linton

    Jun 16, 2003
    Sort of like those buildings labeled Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.?
  11. Spectre


    Nov 3, 1998
    I see we share some thoughts, steve-o.

    The projected 20mm has already been replaced- in concept, at least- with the 25mm round, and AFAIK, the whole OICW idea has been scrapped.

    It took them long enough. Any real grunt could have told them it was a stupid idea.

    Part of the problem with the 6.8 is the OAL of the round. The longer case prevents heavier (longer) bullets from being used (have to fit into an M-16 sized mag). Using a lighter weight bullet means less sectional density, quicker energy loss, less penetration in harder targets, etc.

  12. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    They'll find that out, Spectre. Only I don't understand why we have to go through this.

    Danny, not the mini 14; but Ruger could have built the weapon the military wanted.

    I'll bet the Ruger version would last a hundred years, too.

  13. 45-70


    Jul 10, 2003
    Danny, I looked at the features of the two items you were talking about, not the nomenclature. I think the XM-8 is a turkey.

    The ban on assault weapons and the illegal to import foreign made guns are two seperate issues, in order to be 922r complaint a gun must not have more than so many imported parts. 18 USC 44 Section 922 r The AWb is section "V" I believe, but I didn't verify it.


    AK-net 922r

    The Reason the HK rep gave me when asked why they had built a US facility was so that they could build the rifles if the US military decided to take them, apparently we won't use an imported weapon, only if it is made here in the states. Apparently the NIH syndrome isn't as made if it's at least made here, at least in regards to Law Enforcement. LAw Enforcement is the one area that many non gun people look at for direction in handgun buying. Look at Glocks efforts in this area.

    Yes FN has a US plant. I don't know about Beretta.
  14. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    I believe the military is exempt from the AWB regarding their products. HK did not build a plant here for that reason.

    What is important is the next generation weapon. Munk's rule of thumb for the military is; don't go to the cost and hassle of a new service weapon unless the weapon is a substancial leap forward.

    I'd like to know if Spectre or Stevo think the weapon coming soon is a substantial leap forward.

  15. 45-70


    Jul 10, 2003
    Correct munk, but What I understood from the conversation last year, is our military didn't want to hae to buy a weapon thta was made overseas, at a plant under another nations control.

    We basically did the same thing with the 03, we took the best of the mauser rifle, Americanized it, then we got sued for infringing upon their patents.
  16. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    Today's contracts usually the provision the weapon be made here- for jobs.

    45/70, I'm going to wander over to some of the gun forums and find out if most people like or dislike the new round/weapon.

    I bet the version without all the electronic aparatus is not a substancial leap forward, but closer to, "just because".

  17. stevomiller


    May 4, 2001
    Munk, NO I don't think that this would be a major leap forward. I think that for the interim (until something truely better comes along) they could tweak the existing platform some more. HK actually makes a pretty cool mod for the M16 that utilizes a piston to operate the action (ala Garand, M1A, FAL, SKS, AK ~ all the good uns) instead of direct impingement.

    Spectre nailed the problem w/ the 6.8 ~ the cartridge case is too long, so you are stuck with using a stubby 115 grain bullet to get it to fit in the existing magazine. The Grendel can use bullets that are 100 grns (still better BC than the 115 6.8), 120 grns (waaaay better), and 140 will even fit for when you need xtra oomph or pentetration downrange.

    As far as the shepherd size deer here on the coast, even the 6.8's 115 grn would lay them flat. 100 grn in the .250 savage at 2800 knocks them over just fine. Most shots are pretty close :)
  18. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    Stevo- this HK piston for the 16; why not Armalite's 18?

    I'm not gonna look it up, but a 115 gr bullet in .270 is pretty much like your 125, 130 gr bullet in .308: marginal for big game. The minimum specs for any kind of retained energy, penetration, etc etc are 150 gr in .308 and 130 in .270 Below this and you're just blowing off bullets, having fun, shooting at cans.
    So if you must fit the old mag length, Spectre is exactly correct about dropping to a 6.5
    Why was it important to fit the old mag? We're going to retrofit all the 16's with new barrels?

  19. stevomiller


    May 4, 2001
    Because to use a mag that would accomodate a longer cartridge would require redesigning/manufacturing the lower reciever.

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