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Buddhism, Hindus, God, Fate and Khukuris

Discussion in 'Himalayan Imports' started by munk, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. Ferrous Wheel

    Ferrous Wheel

    May 16, 2002
    Checked out that link. There is a prophecy similar to Norse Ragnarok, in which The world serpent Jormungandr rises from the ocean, causing tidal waves and earthquakes, and Thor confronts the beast and kills it, himself being poisoned and falling dead after nine steps...

    "There are two water serpents, one at each pole with a warrior sitting on his head and tail. These command nature to warn us by her activities that time is getting short and we must correct ourselves. If we refuse to heed these warnings the warriors will let go of the serpents..."

    Parallels, parallels...

    "Blue eyed Indians you say?"--Yep. There's current studies of the Mandan tribe, suggesting they are ndns mingled with the lines of a Welsh prince named Madoc. Left Europe in the 13th c, heard of a new land from scandinavian fisherman and travellers. There's numnerous articles on the web about Madoc and the Welsh indians, and there are unexplained earth and stoneworks that are not native-built, found long the mississippi all the way to the Ohio river and souther indiana. There's a book published locally about it, but it is more bent on persuasion that rooted in scholarly stud. it does serve as a starting point for such reasearch tho...

    Also, the Micmaq Indian tribe in Canada document 300 years of dealings with Scandianvians, starting with Leif 'the Lucky' Eriksson in 1000c.e. and closing around 1300.
    White folks was wild once, too!

    Keith
    En Ferro Veritas
     
  2. firkin

    firkin

    Jan 26, 2002
    Let's be careful here. What is a chemical? A bunch of atoms stuck together, not all of the same kind. If it ain't an element, it's a chemical. Many are produced by humans, the majority present in large ammounts are produced by nature. Chemicals comprising a few atoms to DNA. Yes DNA is a chemical. Just because a chemical is man-made, does not mean it is "better" or "worse" than one that occurs in nature. Ricin, from the castor-oil plant is one of the most toxic substances known to humans. Or check out ergotamine, produced by a rye fungus. It is suspected that much of the witch hysteria of the middle ages is due to ergotamine intoxication from spoiled rye. Same effect as LSD, in fact LSD is slightly modified ergotamine.

    Many plant's produce jillions of chemicals especially when under stress from bacteria, mold, or insect predation. Some of these chemicals crosslink DNA (= mutation if in gametes, and common mechanism included in cancer development) upon exposure to sunlight. They are evolving chemical warefare to attack and kill other organisms. They can be just as toxic as anything humans have cooked up. Some strains of celery a few years ago were selected and bred for insect resitance (old-fashioned way--no gene-splicing). They proved too toxic for field workers to harvest, they got severe rashes working in the sunny fields. They suffered far more from this than any pesticide residue. However these same chemicals, renamed "drugs" are useful to treat psorisis. These subtances show up as carcinogenic in tests. Citrus oils, clove oils, nicotine, etc. These are all weapons evolved by plants to kill or discourage animals, fungus, bacteria from eating the plant. Pencillin is from a fungus that produces it to kill bacteria so it doesn't have to compete with them for a food source. Anything a plant makes is for it's own good, not human's. Tasty edible fruits, help in seed distribution, but the plant sure doesn't "want" it's seeds digested, or it's flowers and leaves eaten. Chemical warfare developed over millions of years.

    Animals have also evolved with the plants and so have developed defenses against these substances. They continue to evolve. Otherwise they would be extinct. In fact humans seek out many plants with such substances and call them spices. Bruce Ames, the inventor of the "Ames test" which he believes is commonly mis-used as a screen for mutagenicity, has published long lists of foods that contain substances, that were they man-made, would not be considered safe. From black pepper to domestic white button mushrooms.

    The natural defenses against damage from such chemicals can be overwhelmed, and some substances are potent enough to overwhelm them, manmade and natural. Man-made substances may be more dangerous simply because they are pure. Doesn't take much pure "natural" nicotine to kill you if injected. Knowledge of the properties of the environment has always been the key to survival. Try eating some raw acorns. That includes the environment as altered by humans. And yes, humans should be very careful about how they alter the environment, including dumping a bunch of new or poorly understood chemicals around, particularly when short-sighted greed is at work. Deliberately producing chemicals designed to kill humans is clearly not in our best interest as a species, as is altering the environment without some idea of the consequences.

    But let's keep things in perspective, and remember that we're all a wet sack of chemicals arranged with exquisite complexity.

    I respect the right of creationists to differ with some of the above.

    Those who believe the universe was created solely for the benfit of, and utilization by humans, can sod off. :)
     
  3. Ferrous Wheel

    Ferrous Wheel

    May 16, 2002
    "Those who believe the universe was created solely for the benfit of, and utilization by humans, can sod off."--Firkin

    Classic, man! That is one of the greatest fallacies of any philosophy or religion ever!
    In my beliefs, even gods are accountable to the laws of this realm...there is a system at work, and we are part of it, not above it.
    We don't even know what makes us tick, or where life and death begin and end, yet here we are, proclaiming ourselves as so above it all and superior...what rubbish! Own up to it folks--we're as scared and alone as babes in space, along for the ride, certainly not at the reins. Know your limitations.

    Keith
    En Ferro Veritas
     
  4. Bill Martino

    Bill Martino

    Mar 5, 1999
    I'll drink (my bottle of combined chemicals called Heineken) to that.
     
  5. Yvsa

    Yvsa

    May 18, 1999
    Sounds good to me Keith except I'm not gonna be yelling at any of the old Gods.:)

    Wanka Tanka belongs to the Sioux and is their Great Mystery. Tunkashila or Grandfather in the Sioux langauge is recognized as the God who we can understand as He cares for us as a grandfather would and does.
    For the Cherokee Unelanvhi is the Great Mystery and the God that no one can fully understand as indeed how do you describe something that you can't see, touch or hear except in your mind?:)
    Edudu is Grandfather in Cherokee and Agidudu, or Agidodv depending on who's telling the spelling, is "My" Grandfather, told y'all that Cherokee is difficult, and plays the same part as Tunkashila for the Sioux.

    There's not much to see at Runestone, just a little writing on a big rock amongst other big rocks.
    I had a good feeling when I was there, seems the Norsemen felt the same about the land as we did/do.
    I don't think anyone has tried it yet, but the land in that part of Oklahoma seems well suited for the growing of grapes for wine.
    Oklahoma is starting to be recognized as a great wine country in and of itself as has Arkansas and Missouri.
    Now wonder the Norsemen liked it.:)
     
  6. Eikerværing

    Eikerværing

    374
    May 30, 2002
    I searched on internet and found some stuff about Madoc. I added it to my favourite links. Thanks a lot Ferrous Wheel. :)

    I believe you will love this link too Ferrous:
    http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/mayan/index.htm
    I haven't read the book yet, I just had it recommended by an intelectual guy I know. I will read it soon.
     
  7. Yvsa

    Yvsa

    May 18, 1999
    Eikerværing I found this book interesting, but it's been awhile since I read it so I don't recall a whole lot about it. It's not far off to 2012 now so I guess it won't be long until we find out one way or another.:)

    To answer your question about the Hopis and the link you posted the best I can....
    Yes there is some truth to the Hopi Prophecies as there is some truth to many of the old prophecies, but I fear the New Agers has taken over much of many ndns spiritualism.
    You can't become Hopi by making a so called Peace Shield nor I think Cheyenne, seems one writer wrote about the Cheyenne Peace Chiefs and Peace Shields.
    I read a couple of those books that friends loaned to me, but I didn't take much stock in them either.

    Another book called "The Celestine Prophecies," I think it was, told about the development of a brand new way of life and discoveries and that there aren't any such things as coincidence, something I've longed believed myself, and that there was going to be a whole new age of awareness coming to those who were in on the secret so to speak.
    The end goal was to achive such an amount of spirituality that you yourself would be able to see into the spiritual realm, it's been awhile since I read that one as well and I don't remember all that much about it except I knew it was bogus no matter how wonderful the message.:(
    Problem is that the book is fiction but when the author discovered how hungry people were for such things wrote another book describeing in full how to take advantage of the teachings in the first book.

    I do know from much searching on the internet that there's not too much that is fact about us ndn's belief's, spirituality or religion.
    Any "real ndn" just isn't going to put that sort of information in the public eye.
    I'm self limited as to just how much I will talk about on the internet or even to people I don't know well about the things I do and the things I know about.
    One of the biggest problems us ndns have with the non-ndns is the non-ndns trying to weasel their way into just what so many of us do believe and practice.
    There are many of us, myself included, that feel the non-ndn in the US has stolen so much from us that we are not going to let them steal our spirituality as well.

    There has long been talk of the Rainbow People. I even know a few myself.:eek:
    There's a lot of info on the internet about the Rainbow People both positive and negative.
    They can build all the Sweatlodges and Sweat as often as they want to, but they have proven they don't have the proper love for the land.
    Most times the area they have camped in has been trashed thoroughly.
    They smoke marijuana in the Sweats, have multiple people "love ins" with people of opposite and same sex having all sorts of noxious behaviors.
    I can guarantee you us ndns do not condone such behavior.
    I had about 9 more lines I had written here that named some names about the fake or Plastic Medicine People that prey on non-ndns looking for ndn spirituality.
    There has been out right fraud which has been the least harmful to people being badly hurt both physically and mentally.
    I deleted what I had written because of the possible liability that Bladeforums.com might have had brought against them.

    The big problem is that the non-ndns in the US have lost all or at least almost all of their old belief's of the land and how to nurture and be nurtured from the land and the Spirits that reside there.
    They could go back to their own beginnings for the same knowledge us ndns have and it would be their's and their's alone and just as strong and powerful as ours and by doing so could actually help heal our Earth Mother in cooperation rather than ruin Her further.
    They don't need our ways!!!!:grumpy:
     
  8. Bill Martino

    Bill Martino

    Mar 5, 1999
    I had to chuckle at Yvsa's post. Some folks try to stuff their belief system down your throat and some guard theirs and won't tell you about it even if you ask.
     
  9. munk

    munk

    Mar 22, 2002
    Heaven wouldn't be any good if only one man found it.


    munk
     
  10. Eikerværing

    Eikerværing

    374
    May 30, 2002
    Dear Yvsa

    You write a lot. I can see you are well into these things. Thanks for your report back to me.

    I have registered the things you say, New Agers doing a lot of crazy things with other people's Old Ways. And it makes it even worse when Capitalism grabs it's hands on the term "spirituality" and tries to profit on it.

    I suspected the same as you now tell me. An Indian with a real self respect might be reluctant to post his faith on internet.

    Well, my idea for reading about The Hopi Way is just because I like to read and learn. I stand by my ancestors' faith; Norse Mythology. That is I am not very religious really, I don't feel the need to perform rituals or prayers, and I don't feel the need to fill my heads with ideas about supernatural powers, but I feel it is right to stick to the religion of my ancestors to show them honour. And besides, Christianity is an Arabian religion for Arabs. (no offences meant towards Arabs)

    Well, I'll read those web pages about the Hopi Ways, but I will read it with the thought that it might not be the true story.

    I hope that you American Indians manage to preserve your blood. If you end up mixing yourself with other Americans then your true Indian spirit will die. I guess you need to have an area in USA where you will be allowed to live more on your own if you are to be able to preserve your blood lines for the future.

    Best wishes :)
     
  11. munk

    munk

    Mar 22, 2002
    I hope that you American Indians manage to preserve your blood. If you end up mixing yourself with other Americans then your true Indian spirit will die>> Eikerang

    Do you believe this?

    munk
     
  12. Eikerværing

    Eikerværing

    374
    May 30, 2002
    If you want philosophical evidence for why there is no such thing as coincidence I can provide you with it, based on scientific knowlegde.

    The universe begins, energy turns to matter, atoms form, galaxies are born.

    If you had a super powerful computer that from the very beginning of the creation of our universe was given the coordinates and physical properties of all physical objects (down to atoms and smaller). Provide this super powerful computer with physical laws and what so ever we have not yet discovered of physical rules that governs the paths of the elements. Then you could calculate and predict where the atoms and elements formed billions of years ago would be today in year 2002. You could calculate that you existed, you could calculate events in your life, and calculate the very thoughs you make now while reading my words... This is because atoms and the other elements follow some physical laws in their behaviour.

    Well, my idea does not include the existence of a soul. It relies on that your personality is a product of the biochemistry in your brain. Which is atoms and molecules having an effect on eachother.

    Well, there is something called Chaos Theory too. But I think that basically means that we don't have the computer power to calculate everything accurately (for example the weather).

    But anyway, with this philosophical/scientific argumentation you can now easily battle anyone who tries to use science to kill the faith many people have in that some things in life are not coincidence. :D

    Just my ideas up for critics :D
     
  13. Yvsa

    Yvsa

    May 18, 1999
    Thanx Eik.:)
    You're welcome.

    It isn't a matter of preserveing our blood to some, but preserving the spirit of the heart.
    I myself am not a full blood, but I live the old ways and am a respected Elder among all the ndns I know and many that I don't know as my reputation preceeds me.
    My closest friends and family are always telling me of someone else that knows me or knows of me and all I've heard reported back has been good.:)
    There are some among us that says their grandchildren doesn't have enough ndn blood to qualify as ndns and won't be allowed to participate in ceremony.
    That's very sad to me and many other Elders because we know that being an ndn is largely how one was raised and not the degree of ndn blood.
    My sweet wife hasn't a drop of ndn blood, but is more ndn than many full bloods who deny their heritage, and walks the Good Red Road with me.
    Barb has much honor and respect among all who knows us and is treated with that honor and respect.
    Barb's hand made Cherokee baskets are much sought after as well as her deer and elk skin cedar bags although she cannot sell them as ndn made.
     
  14. munk

    munk

    Mar 22, 2002
    It isn't a matter of preserveing our blood to some, but preserving the spirit of the heart.
    I myself am not a full blood, but I live the old ways and am a respected Elder among all the ndns I know and many that I don't know as my reputation preceeds me. >>> Yvsa

    Whew. True true true.



    munk
     
  15. firkin

    firkin

    Jan 26, 2002
    "Provide this super powerful computer with physical laws and what so ever we have not yet discovered of physical rules that governs the paths of the elements. Then you could calculate and predict where the atoms and elements formed billions of years ago would be today in year 2002"

    physical laws and what so ever we have not yet discovered of physical rules that governs the paths of the elements

    With that phrase, you have left the realm of science!

    The existance of undiscovered physical rules and whether fundamental "hidden variables" exist that rectify the uncertainty (Heisenberg sense) have been a philosophical question since the birth of quantum physics.

    Many conundrums such as "Heisenberg's cat", or what the measurement of one of two particles speeding away from each other "does" to the other arise. Some imaginative people have attempted to use such things to postulate a "connectedness" of things beyond what we explain with current science. But they're hardly scientific at the current state of development.

    Very few physicists (without an external agenda) seriously suggest future discoveries or theories will support a microscopically determinstic clockwork universe as you describe. But some advocate the view that many nearly parallel realities branch off as time progresses. That they find that more reasonable says a lot about something...

    RE chaos theory, chaos is this sense can be calculated or simulated on a computer. Surprisingly simple iterated functions lead to chaotic behavior. The problem is such functions produce totally different, but still chaotic behavior for the tiniest change in a constant. Sort of like getting a star when you thought you had barely changed a constant in an equation that you thought should provide a slightly larger circle. Even if you had infinite computing power, you probably couldn't fully define such things exactly, as there's an infinite number of things to try. However things are not random, certain boundary conditions exist, and some description of behavior over time can often be described. But a tiny change in the initial values of constants or equation may change even that by an unpredicatable amount.

    You may also want to investigate Godel's [with umlaut] theorem which essentially postulates that all possible states of deterministic system may only be completely calculated by a larger, more complex system. i.e. your computer would have to be larger than the (if deterministic) Universe!

    Are such mysteries any less awe-inspiring than than the rest of Nature? Is there a difference for one humble enough not to believe humans are the center of the Universe? Would such a computer be different than what many consider to be a god?

    just some things to consider:)
     
  16. Rusty

    Rusty Moderator Moderator

    Mar 8, 1999
    And when they find out they can't force it down your throat they try to shove it up the other end of your alimentary canal.

    The Mandan I mentioned sharing an office with earlier? This fall the tribe is honoring him at one pow-wow by adding a grass dance event in his name at the Pine nut festival. ( I'm not real clear on this, but I'm going because of what we did and meant to/for each other. ) I remember him fondly but have been given others to take his place, and have gratitude that he and I shared part of each others lives.

    Oh well, what the hell!
     
  17. firkin

    firkin

    Jan 26, 2002
    Well, it is an (admittedly not as large as could be) improvement over killing the unconverted in the belief that the unconverted would go to the killer's version of Hell instead of the destination of the victim's own beliefs.

    Still lot's of room for advancement in this department.
     
  18. Bill Martino

    Bill Martino

    Mar 5, 1999
    Very good and very interesting stuff. The best part of this thread is the opening of mind and spirit. Before anybody can go anywhere this must be done.

    Special blessings to all for contributions.
     
  19. Eikerværing

    Eikerværing

    374
    May 30, 2002
    Well, yes...

    This is a very big subject, but I will try to be short.

    I believe different populations have some inheritable differences. I must admit that I am just relying on my acquiered intuition of ethology and some hypothesis. This is unplowed scientific land so it is impossible to say it is true or not true.
    It must be warned about looking to adopted children or mixed children for proving no inheritable differences. The human animal adapts to the majority around itself, supressing what feels natural and changing itself in order to fit into a social context.
    The question we kow nothing about is what happens when a gene flow between two populations over time changes the recieving population to such a degree that the recieving population's original genetic elements become a minority in the end. Could that facilitate a period of cultural change? Anyone who has read a bit about twin studies knows genes are not bullshits in having a say in behaviour.

    But even if you don't accept differences between populations I think the following scenario is worth a thought for those interested in preserving their ancestors' ways:
    If the gene flow of today between the populations is maintained the future population of Indians will be severly diluted. Imagene a futuristic tribe consisting of for example 3,125% Indian blood only. Can you predict that they will feel it natural to call themselves Indians? Will they still feel comfortable about having a tribal unity? Will they start to raise some questions? Will that tribe slowly disintegrade? Will all cultural and religious Indian practices then start to fade after tribal disintegration? And have we then lost a valuable piece of this Mother Earth?

    Well I don't know the final results, does anyone?

    Pray folks...
     
  20. Eikerværing

    Eikerværing

    374
    May 30, 2002
    Originally posted by firkin
    "Provide this super powerful computer with physical laws and what so ever we have not yet discovered of physical rules that governs the paths of the elements. Then you could calculate and predict where the atoms and elements formed billions of years ago would be today in year 2002"

    physical laws and what so ever we have not yet discovered of physical rules that governs the paths of the elements

    With that phrase, you have left the realm of science!


    Nope... I already did that when I said "super powerful computer", which is why I refered to it as merely a philosophy...


    Many conundrums such as "Heisenberg's cat",...

    Schrödinger's cat actually...


    Very few physicists (without an external agenda) seriously suggest future discoveries or theories will support a microscopically determinstic clockwork universe as you describe.

    Becuase they are supposed to stay on a narrow line and do physics only. A biologist can't say in public that God is the hand that guides evolution. A serious scientist cannot do such things! (I am not Christian, it was just an example.)


    RE chaos theory,...
    ...The problem is such functions produce totally different, but still chaotic behavior for the tiniest change in a constant. Even if you had infinite computing power, you probably couldn't fully define such things exactly, as there's an infinite number of things to try. However things are not random, certain boundary conditions exist, and some description of behavior over time can often be described. But a tiny change in the initial values of constants or equation may change even that by an unpredicatable amount.

    Good. So if my philosophical computer is capable of all things the computers of today are not capable of (including it's operators), then it could be done, right?


    You may also want to investigate Godel's [with umlaut] theorem which essentially postulates that all possible states of deterministic system may only be completely calculated by a larger, more complex system. i.e. your computer would have to be larger than the (if deterministic) Universe!

    Excellent! Now you are becoming philosophical too!


    Would such a computer be different than what many consider to be a god?

    And that is what most people make as a spontaneous idea when I tell them about this super computer.

    Free your mind... :)
     

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