Companies need to start issuing verified third-party HRC tests.

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Comeuppance, Jun 27, 2019.

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  1. Danke42


    Feb 10, 2015
    Redirect. Why would I trust an anonymous poster on the net to me what the "Rockwell" and what the "grains" are in anything? I wasn't born last night.

    The idea that suddenly it's critical to suddenly add layers of bureaucracy and testing to certify something like a pocket knife is laughable. It doubles down on that ludicrous presumption of a demand for written in stone guarantees by granting the right to bless said items to a group with no accountability or history.

    If you'll notice anyonen on here selling something like a knife or other product has a membership to do so and their real names and contact info along with their CV are posted in the clear. I don't see that in any of the current folks who've arrived to shout for this "feature". What I see is random folks putting out the equal to this classic quote.

    My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can test it.
  2. Banter 247

    Banter 247

    Feb 22, 2019
    @Danke42 , I absolutely respect and support your right to not accept “trust me”. In this case, the tester has been third party verified by Manly, Tuya, and third party testers of their choosing.

    Ultimately, though, it’s up to each of us to consider sources and weigh merit. Your choices are yours to make, and I respect that.
    Mo2 likes this.
  3. danbot

    danbot Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 2009
    I'm gonna need to see some documentation.
    Also the latest hardness tester calibration report and the QA certification of the person who is doing the actual testing.
    evilgreg, Danke42 and The Aflac Duck like this.
  4. Banter 247

    Banter 247

    Feb 22, 2019
    We’re not putting personal information out there. I understand and respect your hesitation to accept ‘trust me’, and to that end, companies have each third party verified.

    As such


    Again, you are welcome to apply your own filter, and to discard his tests and theirs.
    BITEME and marrenmiller like this.
  5. danbot

    danbot Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 2009
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  6. Insipid Moniker

    Insipid Moniker Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    For me, personally, this would just add a bit more expense to my purchases without giving me much info. Any company would make sure to send a properly treated sample and even if it was double blind a single blade being testing couldn't possibly be representative of an entire batch, much less a whole product line. Given that, in my knife journey, I simply regard edge retention and toughness as 'adequate' or 'lacking', I don't see how this would help me much.
    evilgreg likes this.
  7. Joshua25


    Mar 16, 2018
    I heard that too with the Ganzo, getting normal D2 performance, not anything extreme, or even noticeably better. One fellow thought that maybe they weren't properly tempering after the quench, and instead taking it straight to the grinder post quench. I haven't noticed any chippiness in mine though, and it stropped back no issues
    DocJD likes this.
  8. evilgreg

    evilgreg Why so serious? Gold Member

    Dec 25, 2012
    The testing that showed various knives having ridiculously low HRC numbers was a bit of surprise, I admit. I mean, I like some LionSteel knives but it seems likely they're doing an utter trash job at heat treating their blade steel. That said, IMO for the vast majority of users and the vast majority of use cases, hardness of blade steel is all but meaningless.

    I am unwilling to believe that many are sharpening their knives all that frequently, and the only thing high hardness buys you is wear resistance. Unless you're a cook and we're talking about kitchen knives, or a wood carver and we're talking about carving knives, or some similarly specialized heavy wear use case that falls into the exception, not the rule, I just don't see folks sharpening all that frequently. If you're sharpening once every month, doubling performance only means sharpening every other month instead--big deal. With a little practice a moron could sharpen a dull knife with the bottom of a coffee cup in about thirty seconds (I know from experience, I'm a moron and I've been sharpening everything on coffee cups for a while now) so you're talking about saving a whole thirty seconds every two months in that scenario--not exactly life-changing.

    Taking myself as an example, I carry a variety of pocket knives in a loose rotation, and it's rare that any of them needs sharpening. They've mostly got fancy blade steels and because I'm rotating them they don't take that much wear. Even the knives I do use heavily like my overused/abused 150mm Fujiwara Nashiji Petty in the kitchen, or my favorite whittling knives, really don't consume any noticeable time in their slightly more-frequent sharpening requirements.

    I mean, do I think a company like LionSteel should do a better job at HT if those numbers are true? Yes. Does it really matter in most practical use? Hell no.
    Natlek, palonej, colin.p and 2 others like this.
  9. slyraven


    Feb 19, 2019
    I agree in so far as it would actually help the companies branding and trustworthiness. I do not believe it should be forced, since there are those who already verify the treatments in the community..but how could it possibly hurt a company to go a step further to strengthen their claims?
  10. Danke42


    Feb 10, 2015
    The tester is verified by Alibaba!
    Lapedog, Mecha, craytab and 1 other person like this.
  11. danbot

    danbot Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 2009
    palonej, Cursum Perficio and Danke42 like this.
  12. sharp_edge

    sharp_edge Gold Member Gold Member

    Jul 30, 2015
    I agree.

    Your post (as well as many recent ones by others on this subject) makes me question the rationale of me paying more for the so-called super steels like M390 while in reality VG-10 and S30V shall be sufficiently good and a normal user may not even be able to tell the differences between these steels. If more and more people are thinking this way and acting accordingly, wouldn't we see a quick decline of sales of super steel knives? And how would that affect the knife industry in general?
  13. danbot

    danbot Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 2009
    A Timex Is probably just as reliable for keeping time as a Rolex, but the heart wants what the heart wants. ;)
  14. Mo2


    Apr 8, 2016
    People seem to not care about the steel as much as they care about the name alone.

    Also this is I don't understand some of the people's replies here. It baffles my mind. Heck we have a subsection for blacksmiths and a wealth of information among custom makers. I don't get why so many people are oblivious to these things.

    It's probably more about jumping on the bandwagon than learning.
    marrenmiller likes this.
  15. sharp_edge

    sharp_edge Gold Member Gold Member

    Jul 30, 2015 is more like people finally find out that the QC and the level of craftsmanship of Rolex is actually not much different from those of Timex.
    danbot likes this.
  16. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Platinum Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    Gotta say, my honest response to the OP is this: Companies don't need to do jack ish. They don't owe anyone anything. Providing some chart that roughly 0.000001% of their customer base can even correctly interpret? What company would waste their time doing that? That's why they don't do it now. There aren't even any objectively right answers, because every steel is good for something and there's no one steel that's the best at every single quantifiable/qualitative metric.

    It's just such an entitled thing to demand. Heh, I can just imagine Sal Glesser seeing this thread and thinking "Heh, these guys are high, anyway here's a question: WHO'S UP FOR ANOTHER PM2 SPRINT RUN IN AN AWESOME STEEL?!!!!! WOOOOOO!!!!!" then he throws up the deuces and walks out of the conference room.
    jlauffer, ScooterG, Lapedog and 6 others like this.
  17. Insipid Moniker

    Insipid Moniker Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    What would we learn from this test? I'm all about comprehensive testing, but this suggestion is far from that. If companies started doing it, that would be fine, I suppose, but regardless of the credentials of the third party tester it would be nothing more than advertising.
    craytab, Danke42 and danbot like this.
  18. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Platinum Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    My question would be, what significance does the blacksmithing section or the information our custom makers share have to do with this thread's subject? "I demand that ESEE start giving us an in-depth review of their steel composition and heat-treat protocol, along with a report on HRC". Custom makers who do their own protocol (or like many, send them to someone like Peters) has little to do with what production companies are doing, many of whom have inhouse treat protocols.

    Also, it goes without saying, but for a lot of people (to include the millions of knife users who aren't BF members), if your M390 or 20cv is run a little soft and you aren't a Youtuber who beats a knife in an attempt to break it, you'll virtually never know the difference. Most people use knives to cut things, and unless you're breaking down a garage full of cardboard boxes, even 8cr13mov will last for a bit.
    craytab likes this.
  19. Mrs_Esterhouse


    Apr 9, 2019
    Suppose someone buys a high-end watch that is rated to 1000M depth. The watch maker knows 99.99% of their customers will never go past 200M so they go cheaper on the case tolerances and water seals to save on production costs. They calculate if that rare 1 in 10,000 customer actually pushes the watch to its limits an it fails, they can simply eat the replacement cost and still end up way ahead of actually making the watch consistently withstand 1000M of depth. So, if you were in the market for a high end watch or had already purchased one and then discovered this was a standard industry practice, wouldn't you be a little pissed? This is pretty much what's happening with HRC and knives, but you have so many people saying: oh, you'll never notice the difference anyway or oh, no one pushes M390 to its limits so it doesn't matter. I think if makers are stating 59-60HRC it d*mn well should be in that range. What we mostly have instead is: oh, you caught us. Here, have another knife on us; now please go away.
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
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  20. DocJD


    Jan 29, 2016
    Just looked at the pics ! ;)
    craytab likes this.
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