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Companies need to start issuing verified third-party HRC tests.

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Comeuppance, Jun 27, 2019.

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  1. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Platinum Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    While I hear you, at the end of the day, it's cheaper to do exactly as you describe. Furthermore, I think it would shock and disgust you to find out exactly how many companies across a countless number of industries do this exact thing. It's simply cheaper, and again, if your product fails, they can just replace it with one that doesn't. And again, we're talking about pocket knives. Where are all the people who are using M390 bladed knives and oh gee, if only it'd been four points harder, it wouldn't have broken, or gotten dull? Does anyone have an objective metric on how long between sharpening an extra four points gets you?

    I mean, objectively I know the answer is "No, no I don't, because there are simply too many variables to correctly ascertain what you're asking for", but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.
     
    WValtakis likes this.
  2. Danke42

    Danke42

    Feb 10, 2015
    How do you know it's really VG-10?
     
    craytab likes this.
  3. kniferbro

    kniferbro

    Jan 22, 2011
    Yeah but you've presented that kind of like a sort of dichotomy, either they're "in the know" or they're not. It really is a spectrum, so they're aiming for "people that know but don't really know" which is to say they know M390 is a hot steel, that it's "the best", but they don't know the science behind it, the effect of heat treatment, geometry to match the chemistry etc.. They're aiming for the people right in the middle with these knives, right at the big fat meaty part of the distribution. $$$$$$
     
    willc likes this.
  4. Danke42

    Danke42

    Feb 10, 2015
    In on one.
     
    Mecha likes this.
  5. Danke42

    Danke42

    Feb 10, 2015
    It's probably more reliable but it's resale value isn't going to skyrocket the way a Rolex will.

    I don't have a Rolex but I do have a Timex. Over ten years that cheap quatrz watch has kept on ticking accurately without even a battery change. Meanwhile my more expensive watches like TAG go to the service center regularly for changes, pressure checks, new o-rings, new batteries and the last time the guy said he's surprised it's still working as well as it does.

    Both watches were bought to tell time. The less expensive one for where if you bang the crystal on your nice watch you'll be unhappy. Kinda like knives, common sense says the less expensive one gets used when the chance of damage is higher.

    Like knives there are watches out there that maybe aren't as good as others. It feels like some of these new companies that are trying to shove their way in for a place at a crowed table by offering a hot super steel at way less that other brands are the equal to a Rolex from a table at night market in Hong Kong. It might look good for an IG pocket dump. I'm sure not going to feel sorry for anyone who believed the hype and is now feeling ripped off.
     
    Quiet and danbot like this.
  6. Revolverrodger

    Revolverrodger

    Jul 23, 2007
    HRC is one important parameter... but actual steel composition is another
    How do you know that your s35vn knife is actual s35vn ?
     
  7. danbot

    danbot Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 2009
    Thing is, It's not difficult to obtain that range of hardness. Mistakes can and do happen I'm sure, but it would actually cost more (probably less than a penny per blade though) to draw back the hardness to say, 56-57HRC. It's a higher temp and/or a longer soak in the oven.
    It doesn't really make any sense to lie about it and risk your reputation over a few points on the Rockwell scale.
     
    Insipid Moniker likes this.
  8. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    He didn't get that far even. Only 3 pages deep. Too bad. I post lots of great pics!
     
    DocJD, Quiet and danbot like this.
  9. PirateSeulb

    PirateSeulb Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 6, 2017
    This thread shows the rabbit hole we go down when you begin questioning the honesty and practices of the companies. We start with companies having bad results on HRC and now we are questioning their steel. I know some companies have been caught with having wrong steel but at what point are honest mistakes and mix ups being treated as malicious intent?
     
    Edgeoflife and danbot like this.
  10. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    When brkt lies to a customer and tells them that 20cv should patina after 10 minutes. Turns out it wasn't 20cv.

    But I get your point. This is indeed a rabbit hole.
     
  11. PirateSeulb

    PirateSeulb Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 6, 2017
    There are absolutely bad apples but lets not spoil the hole bunch on a few. You also have issues like BM and their soft 3V, I think it was 3V, that they said was soft to make it easier to field sharpen and make it "tougher"/more chip resistant. We all know that they were running 3V too soft but they landed it in their listed range so while stupid they were honest and that is what we should want from the companies. We want a listed range and we want them in that range if we take issue with that range then we can simply not buy. I still would expect companies to on occasion have one leave the factory that isn't in the range. I wouldn't expect to see a 52 when target range is 58+ that is probably a bad batch that got through w/o any testing.
     
  12. Banter 247

    Banter 247

    374
    Feb 22, 2019
    It was basically 3 pages of this sort of contribution to the community.
     
  13. Comeuppance

    Comeuppance Fixed Blade EDC Emisssary Gold Member

    Jan 12, 2013
    I’m honestly surprised there seems to be pushback on the idea I put forth (or demanded, depending on how you look at it)

    A lot of the rebuttals seem more rooted in skepticism than anything else, though, saying the test results would be of little value due to batch variability / potential dishonesty.

    I don’t know much about the details of heat treatments, but, isn’t it a process that can be made into just a rote and mechanical sequence? Temperature, duration, etc - If all the blades are roughly identical, and the process is routine, I wouldn’t expect there to be significant variability between or within batches. Perhaps my ignorance is showing here.
     
  14. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    You know nothing of this community. @DocJD and me are best buds :D:eek:
     
  15. Danke42

    Danke42

    Feb 10, 2015
    This is like saying some people drink and drive so all cars should have a breathalyzer ignition lockout standard.

    Secondly; assuming something is simple on the basis that you "don't know much about the details" is going to lead to problems.
     
    craytab likes this.
  16. Insipid Moniker

    Insipid Moniker Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    You're vastly oversimplifying a relatively complicated process. Go look into the heat treat threads about target hardness in some of the shop talk subforums. They can have issues hitting a target Hrc on a single blade with a small oven where hot or cold spots are less likely to be an issue. Now imagine magnifying those issues by a batch of several hundred blades. That's the whole reason that when companies do offer information on Hrc they give a range.
     
    danbot, Banter 247 and craytab like this.
  17. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    I guess I'm wondering if this is that big of a problem? Would it be worth the extra cost? I joked earlier about testing every knife, but if we truly care about this, shouldn't you want the knife in your pocket to be tested? Where does it end?
     
    DocJD likes this.
  18. Banter 247

    Banter 247

    374
    Feb 22, 2019
    I know more about the board than my join date will tell you.

    Well said. Process tolerance and accuracy are things that have to be considered.
     
    AmosPaul likes this.
  19. Comeuppance

    Comeuppance Fixed Blade EDC Emisssary Gold Member

    Jan 12, 2013
    If a consumer is paying a premium for a blade steel because of the stated properties - typically, wear resistance - then it is a big deal if the company cannot reliably produce blades that fall within spec.

    I don’t think testing each blade would be necessary, but I honestly wouldn’t object. Batch testing would suffice and would also drastically reduce the potential loss of sales due to people finding out they are getting poorly-treated blades.

    I’ll answer the cost question with a hypothetical situation question: Imagine you are deciding between two knives that are equally desirable to you, and have the same premium steel.

    One brand claims a range of 58-62 and costs $240, and the other brand charges $250 and states they have their knives independently tested and have verification that their knife is 61HRC. Assuming you will certainly buy one of them with intent on using it frequently, which do you buy?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
    jux t, AmosPaul and willc like this.
  20. microbe

    microbe

    446
    Apr 6, 2016
    Aitor, a Spanish company used to -not sure if they still do this- test all their blades, and even advertised it. I would not mind knives that showed a test dimple which shows that they where tested, and within HRC specs.
    [​IMG]
     
    Pomsbz, jux t, Edgeoflife and 3 others like this.
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