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Edge Pro Matrix resin bond diamond stones

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by Diemaker, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero

    Mar 22, 2014
    The smooth black granite tile is cheaper and flat enough, $5 for 12x12.

    When it dishes out throw it away and buy a new one.

    The glass is fragile, I broke the thin pane glass while flattening , granite is cheaper and more robust.

    I use a tool liner mat as a base to keep from moving.
     
    studio398 and David Richardson like this.
  2. sickpuppy1

    sickpuppy1 Basic Member Basic Member

    406
    Sep 27, 2018
    Ok, that makes a bit more sense, lol
    In one of Diemakers video’s, he shows dressing them in a figure 8 pattern for that very reason I imagine. But that being said, I too feel the flatter the better as a raised area or bump could be a bit aggressive on the stone
     
  3. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    425
    Apr 28, 2017
    I like porcelain ceramic tiles for longevity the best, and they are cheap. The flatter the better but they don't have to be perfect and will smooth out over time with proper use. The tile I dedicated to the 80 grit stones has a lot of texture and I have never noticed an issue with it but only use coarse sand on it. If you get a tile that looks pretty flat you will be good. When you lap your stones use figure 8 strokes, rotate the stones 180 degrees once, use the stone to try and lap the tile flat, and only lap the stone for 10 to 15 seconds, if it takes longer there is something wrong.

    The best advice I can give is don't stress out about this too much or waste too much time on it. Pretty much anything that is fairly flat and the right size will work. I have been wondering if a plastic cutting board would work, I just keep forgetting to get one to try. Lapping with loose abrasive on a plate is nothing like lapping a plate with a stone. The cutting action is totally different and way more aggressive.

    Do you sharpen clipper blades on a rotating flat disc with loose abrasive? This is how I have seen them done on YouTube videos but don't know if that is the norm.
     
    studio398 likes this.
  4. David Richardson

    David Richardson Gold Member Gold Member

    217
    Nov 30, 2018
    Sure. I wouldn't use something that's obviously bumpy or has sharp edges. My point is that I can't see how/why absolute flatness is needed in this case.
     
  5. wade7575

    wade7575

    734
    Apr 3, 2013
    I just meant that if your surface is way unlevel that is.
     
    David Richardson likes this.
  6. studio398

    studio398

    22
    May 20, 2015
    thanks for the responses!

    Diemaker, yes i use a rotating 16" cast aluminum wheel / plate but it is not flat. it is machined to be the shape of an upside down funnel, but ever so subtly. it is hard to see the shape, but it becomes apparent when trying to lay a straight edge across the wheel. it imparts a slight hollow grind to the cutting surfaces of the clipper blades. i use loose grit, but it would go flying off if applied as is. a light coating of lard oil is applied to the plate, the grit is spread on top of this and rubbed into the oil and plate. the grit and oil have to be in the right ratio so the grit is not too wet. this will keep the grit sticking to the plate long enough to do the sharpening.
     
  7. Mr. Swede

    Mr. Swede

    17
    Dec 27, 2018
    Just curious, what would the ballpark price for a full size (8") benchstone be?
     
  8. David Richardson

    David Richardson Gold Member Gold Member

    217
    Nov 30, 2018
    Depends on the stone. Generally $20 - $150. You can find stones for less. The Naniwa bonded diamond bench stones are $200 per stone. Bonded CBN stones will cost more if you can find them.
     
  9. Mr. Swede

    Mr. Swede

    17
    Dec 27, 2018
    Sorry, I didn't specify what stone. I ment a edge pro bonded diamond like the ones discussed here, but upscaled to a benchstone.
     
  10. David Richardson

    David Richardson Gold Member Gold Member

    217
    Nov 30, 2018
    "The Naniwa bonded diamond bench stones are $200 per stone. Bonded CBN stones will cost more if you can find them."
     
  11. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    425
    Apr 28, 2017
    This will be my own rodeo outside of EP, it's not guided sharpening, so my target price for the 2"x8" is $99 and the 3"x8" is $149.
     
  12. Mr. Swede

    Mr. Swede

    17
    Dec 27, 2018
    David Richardson likes this.
  13. David Richardson

    David Richardson Gold Member Gold Member

    217
    Nov 30, 2018
    Sorry about that. I obviously thought you were asking what available stones cost, not what Diemaker's future stones will cost.
     
  14. Mr. Swede

    Mr. Swede

    17
    Dec 27, 2018
    No worries @David Richardson , I'm a dyslecti...dysslekk...dyslesbian... I can't spell and express my self in writing in swedish either. I'm used to people not understand what I mean in writing.
     
    David Richardson likes this.
  15. vladislav.jisa

    vladislav.jisa

    6
    Tuesday
    Hello Diemaker, I have read a lot about the Matrix stones and as I can see from your answer to other user the Marix stone are in JIS Units? Is it right? By the way, I have compare the grits of 2 Venev Dimond 50/40 and 20/14. Both are more aggressive than your Matrix. Despite the given unit for Example of your 250 Stone look like more softer in comparison with Venev 50/40. So my question is still about the Unit system of the grit of these stones - the unis are still little misleading and it is not clear what for result I can have at the end.
     
  16. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    425
    Apr 28, 2017
    The Matrix stones are supposed to be mesh but I used the micron to mesh chart from the diamond powder source I was using at the time and it is a bit/quite different than most of the other conversion charts I have since found. This is why I work in microns, no ambiguity! The Matrix stones in microns are 180, 80, 35, 17, 8, 5. Comparing stones by abrasive size alone doesn't tell much so I never worried too much that some of our numbers are a little off, abrasive concentration, quality of the abrasive, bond, all have a lot to do with how the stones work. In post #27 of this thread, I compared some Venev diamond stones to the Matrix stones. Granted I may be somewhat biased but the microscope photos should be of interest to back up my observations. The Matrix and Venev stones are different even though they are both resin bond diamond. The Venevs need more pressure to work, you can use more pressure with them than the Matrix stones, but they create much bigger burrs that you can't just use less pressure to reduce. The Matrix stones cut cleaner, have less feedback, create much smaller burrs that you can make even smaller with less pressure since the Matrix stones still cut with no pressure. This is important since removing bigger burrs can damage the fine apex, even if you need a microscope to see the difference. The Matrix stones are also much faster to dress than the Venevs.

    Here is my favorite video on the Matrix stones and Mike compares them to some Venevs that he has as well.

     
    vladislav.jisa likes this.
  17. vladislav.jisa

    vladislav.jisa

    6
    Tuesday
    Thank you for a quick answer. I will take 2 knife from the same steel and same HRC and make a comparison for myself and to see the difference. Now I can just say, that the Venev 50/40 is just from tactile sensations is much more coarser then Matrix 250, the same situation is with 20/40 and Matrix 650 - Venev is coarser despite the given micron units.

    One more thing both my Matrix stones are slightly thinner at the ends - it is a normal standard quality situation and I should just dress the stones? You can see one of them bellow under other Stone.

    [​IMG]

    They are already thin enough and for the price I have awaited a little bit better surface - it can be more material if the user should dress one new stone. I dress also the Venevs, but Venes are thicker and cheaper. However I should also say that dont exist universal things.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019 at 3:32 PM
  18. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    425
    Apr 28, 2017
    Before they are dressed the Matrix stones are flat within .001", probably less, because there is no stress when making them so they don't distort and the mold cavity bottom is a flat plane within .0002" or less. The thickness of the resin stone and back will vary some with the coarsest stones being the worst and the finest stones the best, the big diamonds get in the way of locating the backs. Check the resin side of one Matrix stone against the back of the other, the machined blanks are also dead flat so they are an excellent reference surface. The gap in the photo can't be from the Matrix stone, that looks like about .02" which is huge! If the lapping plate is old and hollowed out in the middle the ends of the stones will be thinner but only a few thousandths of an inch if no one is paying attention. The coarser the stone the longer it takes to dress off thickness, it takes about 2 or 3 minutes to remove .001" from one end of a Matrix 250 stone if you really try hard with lots of loose grit.

    I have a few questions:
    1) What Matrix stones do you have? 250 and 650?
    2) What Venev stones do you have?
    3) Is the 50/40 and 20/40 the micron size? Sorry if this is a dumb question but a quick search didn't answer it. If one number is concentration do you know what it means?
    4) Are you using a guided sharpener or freehand? If guided which one?
     
  19. vladislav.jisa

    vladislav.jisa

    6
    Tuesday
    I have 2 stones 250 and 650 grits complete new out of the package unused till now
    [​IMG]

    Due to your advice I have made some photos of the gap - and the gap is the same on both ends
    [​IMG]

    in comparison to back of the aluminium plate the gap is smaller but it still exist it is normal in this situation or not?

    [​IMG]

    Back to conversation with Venev - yes I have also 2 stones one with 50/40 and one with 20/14 given in micron units and I use guided sharpening system.
     
  20. Diemaker

    Diemaker KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    425
    Apr 28, 2017
    No that is not normal, I just put a few of my stones together resin to resin and there is no gap. I have to go to EP this afternoon anyway so let me look into this and get back to you. When did you get these, who did you get them from and where are you? Do you have some calipers? I would love to know the thickness of the stones on both ends and the center, 3 measurements per stone.

    I just talked with Cody and he's going to take a look too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019 at 6:09 PM

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