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Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by Kevin R. Cashen, Sep 23, 2010.
I think that's about what Kevin said, and showed.
Dear forum readers:
After this thread was started there has been a run of bladesmiths coming to the E.R. with burnt tongues. Please, please do the taste test when the metal has cooled...
Then I guess we all agree.
... just trying to summarize it.
True, but, I believe the real point was that even though someone with a lot of knowledge and resources tried to make a quench that was good enough to get 1095 to have a high conversion to martensite and they failed. So, why would some one go to the grocery store to get something and think it would do a great job on 1095?
I thought we buried the topic of engineered quenching fluids versus canola oil for 1095 a long time ago. In general, (according to at least one scientific study and many professional's opinions), fresh vegetable oil is faster in the initial part of the quench than most of the engineered fluids. However, the engineered fluids have certain advantages in other areas...
If you want to know if there’s a new magic quenching medium that is faster than the rest, I can tell you what it is right now,… water.
Is there a reason to not work for something better in an oil?
I think it would be cool if someone could come up with a digitally controlled self agitating quenching medium that we could program to quench any steel at any speeds or curve we need, with no possibility for error, and to compensate for the effects of geometry perfectly,... not have to take care of and get for no more than $10 a gallon at the hardware store...
put what to rest?
That a quenchant engineered for a specific type of steel produces greater results than some "seed oil" or water ?
then yes, I guess it was put to rest
No, it hasn't been proven that engineered quenching fluids always produce greater results.
The doctors and scientists also once tried to say that engineered baby formula was better than mother’s natural breast milk for infants based on the scientific theory at the time... They eventually just proved themselves wrong and confirmed what people knew all along, like so many other things.
This is very interesting Kevin. Thanks. I hope that you will continue to post as your protoype formula approaches, meets and exceed the test standard in performance. But, what is the objective? A equal or better quenching medium that is cheaper/more cost effective? or a formula that has very steel-specific qualities for a rigidly defined HT process and end use?
It's funny... I guess I took something entirely different away from this than everyone else. I thought that what Kevin was pointing out was that ANYONE could be failing with their intended outcome without thorough examination of the findings. I didn't think that the intention was to prove that one oil could replicate another, but that one oil may not provide the desired outcome - even if it was intended to through design! As Kevin stated, if your range of tests were broad enough, both of the metal samples would be indistinguishable. However, by refining the test methods the differences become apparent - even obvious. Sort of a microcosmic example of your signature line, I'd think, Tai.
This thread is about someone developing a "new" quenchant. Why dont you take your water and go play elseware. Frankly...no one asked you.
Mace, the sad thing is that if ones understanding of the quenching process is so limited that speed is their only consideration then water or brine could in fact be the ultimate quenches for them, or they could pick and choose whatever information is least threatening to their world view.
But the purpose of this thread was to help those interested in learning more, we can only hope that those not interested in learning any more would have the decency to get out of the way of those who do.
What gets me is that I admire Kevin for his "scientific" approach to the metallurgy and his "crusade" to help us learn what is really happening to the steel with the processes we use and. He also is a great knife and sword maker. I would love to spend some time at his shop and have him pass me some of his knowledge.
I also admire the work of Tai. His forging ability is fantastic and some his pieces are amazing. I am sure his blades are also highly functional. I would love to spend some time at his shop and have him pass me some of his knowledge.
What I don't understand is why he gets so worked up about someone else's approach and efforts to educate. I am a live and let live person who values my inner peach above all. I believe everyone has a right to do it how ever they want and shout it from the mountain. I refuse to let someone's processes and statements upset me, especially when they show excellent examples of what happens. I also feel that doing so and makeing snide remarks about it would make me a bit of a smaller person. If someone were to make a slam on MY work, I would not like it, of course and would defend it. Or if someone made the statement the D2 (which I use a lot) is a poor knife steel, I would explain my reasons for using it and its spot in the knife steel line up. But, feel that they were free to use what ever steel they want and tell everyone why they like it.
If one doesn't like the sermon topics at a certain church, then he should pitch his own tent and hold his own revival.
He should not go to he other church and shout out loud every time the preacher tries to speak.
Sometimes a mans silence says more about is character than his objections do.
Now, as a moderator, I will point out the problems with Tai's postings. He started out with just a difference of opinion, but the thread soon detoured into a rowdy crowd. The original topic has been near fatally lost. The topic ( it might be good for us all to re-read the first post) was not to extol the values of one quenchant or another, but to show the results of a certain test. The point was that ,on the surface, the steels would have appeared to be fully quenched, but were actually only partly converted, even when done in a controlled environment.
I would be remiss if I didn't point out that my posts about taste testing steel for analysis was also not to topic and also derailed this thread ( however, it was not derogatory of the OP). I apologize, Kevin.
Stacy, I was under the impression that this is an open forum and any topic posted is fair game... I was also under the impression that as such, differing points of view were always welcome. I don’t see where I have broken any rules.
Sometimes I get the feeling that there are more than one set of rules here or that the same rules don't apply to everyone. It seems like some can shout what every they want, when ever and where ever they want,... but others can't.
I thought this was supposed to be a level playing field... please excuse me if I'm in error.
You once said you were glad I was part of this forum, even though (and especially because) I have a different perspective. Hope that hasn't changed.
I do agree with that, and believe I already made that point.
Stacy, if we observe the way friendly discussions play out in real life, i.e. a group of gentlemen standing in a circle sharing their thoughts face to face, an integral part of that will be some levity and humorous commentary which actually adds to the conversation instead of it becoming a lecture that takes itself too seriously. I understand this and that is why I welcomed your fun and took part in it myself so you did nothing wrong here, if we would all try to behave in cyberspace more like the way we do in real life places like this would be a lot more pleasant.
On the other hand if somebody behaved with the maturity level of Tai in real life, things could get very ugly really fast. Sadly it is the moderator’s unpleasant job to act as a replacement for those real life behavior inhibitors.
I would submit that this really has nothing to do with disagreeing with the topic of this specific thread as that would be giving Tai too much credit. He had no interest in this thread whatsoever until I bent his id/ego in the “problems with swordmaking” thread and then he decided to have a tantrum with this one; what set him off in the other thread is anybody's guess. There I did curtly inform him that I do not wish to discuss anything with him, but I feel that is the best approach knowing his only purpose to interact with me is to badger and harass.
I would also submit that I have posted this exact same, rather innocuous, thread on two other well known forums on the web and have got nothing but positive interest and friendly discussion. Only here has it been anything but a positive, and only as soon as one individual posted did it differ from the others.
Why is it that whenever I say anything that isn't in agreement, it's dragged down to a personal level?
I think moderators should rebuke those who always make things personal,... take cheap shots, call names and such.
It seems there’s more focus on WHO said what, than what was said.
... maybe if I changed my name…
I was wondering what the "Eye opening" part of this thread was, and now I think I know...
Tai, Thats an interesting and intelligent question....why IS it that whenever you open your mouth the conversation degrades?