Eye opening quench test results.

Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by Kevin R. Cashen, Sep 23, 2010.

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  1. deloid

    deloid

    456
    Dec 19, 2007
    Hi Kevin,

    I wish you had sent this part privately but while I don't need to do this, I will correct the misconception. I underlined parts of the statement you wrote that create a false impression of my intent and positioning or stated exactly the same thing you wrote.

    Note the phrasing of my post:

    "this is an example of personality clash, style clash and or bad interpersonal history. None of this belongs on this type of a thread and frankly it shouldn’t be part of any forum. On the other hand, disagreements, right or wrong should be a component to a forum if people want to see growth and provocative ideas that can help a field or individuals to flourish. These two facets that are inherently part of this genre can have similar origins but are quite different."

    I am quite aware of the history but my point is that it is better to avoid personal conflict on a forum when it doesn't add value to the group’s progress.
    If you find a post offensive or if you don't like an individual your approach is correct (ignore).
    It is up to the moderator to determine if a post is personally demeaning and a warning or deletion would be appropriate.
    Every forum has personality clashes. Every forum has a threshold for managing these. If a group is small enough, the battle will burn out on its own. A larger group like this needs more control so that it doesn't develop factions or camps based on individual support rather than ideology.

    Anyway, just to make it clear, I don't ever belong in any of these camps. I am interested in knowledge, progress, sharing of ideas or even watching a good argument based on the principles of metal working.

    Your post, while I doubt it had that intent, was helping create a camp and placed me on one side. I hope this perception is corrected especially since ultimately we want the same thing.


    Dean
     
  2. Tai Goo

    Tai Goo Banned BANNED

    Apr 7, 2006
    I think we should just try and take things at face value and not read so much into it... we could be wrong.

    Anyway, if it's just as simple as me staying off Kevin's threads, for whatever reasons,... I can try to do that. :)

    I don't think I've ever heard of “automatic derailing” before,... but I suppose it's possible... hadn't occurred to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2010
  3. Kevin R. Cashen

    Kevin R. Cashen

    Sep 9, 2003
    O.K. I was really bothered by how I could make such a consistent error for so long, so I have done some research on the lathe/lath martensite thing and I am finding almost equal occurrences of both spellings in literature on the subject. Many of the older books I have list it as lath, while many newer writings and studies spell it as “lathe”, as can be quickly seen in a Google search. Somehow, somewhere I picked up the spelling with the “e” on the end and it just sort of stuck with me. I can’t say why some sources put the “e” on the end but I do feel that the “lath” spelling does indeed make more sense considering it is describing the lath like shape of that martensite morphology.
     
  4. mete

    mete

    Jun 10, 2003
    I spell things the way I want since nobody else wants to keep things the same. And I won't change from foot-pounds to pound-feet and I'll always use Columbium not Niobium.

    I'm a seasoned citizen and registered curmudgeon !!
     
  5. Mace

    Mace

    Apr 8, 2003
    Kevin,
    Thank you for taking the time to do these tests. You are one of the people who take this craft/art/science to a higher level.
    Mace

    As for other issues in this thread....I call it like I see it.
     
  6. barnett25

    barnett25

    138
    Sep 18, 2008
    I just wanted to post to say thanks Kevin! I hope you don't get discuraged and stop posting usefull information like this. Posts like this are why I come here.
     
  7. Kevin R. Cashen

    Kevin R. Cashen

    Sep 9, 2003
    Barnett25 and Mace, no thanks are necessary, it has always been my pleasure to provide information that helps our craft along. On the other part I must be honest that it is too late, already I post less here because I honestly don’t need the aggravation in my life. There are other sites out there where certain behavior is rejected by all and this type of information is received in a totally positive way, in the future you will find more on this subject in those places.

    Mace, when it comes to right and wrong, people of character say what they mean and mean what they say, without backing down, you have my total respect in this matter.
     
  8. Tai Goo

    Tai Goo Banned BANNED

    Apr 7, 2006
    Kevin, I hope you don't leave on my account. I'm not trying to silence you,... but kind of felt like you and some others were trying to silence me. I do offer some resistance to your philosophies, but your solid information is good stuff! I apologize if resistance and scrutiny aren't welcome, but I do feel that the good information you give should be able to withstand it… I have picked up a few tid bits from you and I thank you for that.

    If “anything I say“, is going to be taken as a derailing attempt and automatically derail your threads,… then, as I’ve said, I will try my best to stay off your threads in the future.

    The tent is big enough for both of us.

    As soon as you have your product ready to market, put me down for a bucket. I'm sure it will be a great success.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2010
  9. Kevin R. Cashen

    Kevin R. Cashen

    Sep 9, 2003
    Tai, don’t go soft on me now, I would think better of you if you would just honestly stick to the attitude toward me to which I have become accustomed. Don’t worry, nothing you could do would ever keep me from something I felt was worth doing, it is the number of people in past threads at this particular forum that think your behavior is O.K. that I have always had trouble with and makes me realize that this may no longer be the place for this kind of information. In any neighborhood it is too easy for apathy to masquerade as tolerance, and in no time at all, everybody needs to lock their doors at night.

    Anything I post should more than easily withstand any genuine scrutiny you could provide, but in all our exchanges you have yet to attempt it. Instead I will follow up this particular topic in venues where genuine scrutiny is valued over your type of disruptive displays.

    That is all, thank you.
     
  10. S.Knowles

    S.Knowles

    657
    Sep 30, 2005
    Very well said Kevin. Thank you for your sharing the pursuit of knowledge with us. I hope this doesnt mean you wont be posting here anymore , but if thats the case I can definately understand.

    Shawn
     
  11. Tai Goo

    Tai Goo Banned BANNED

    Apr 7, 2006
    Don't worry... He'll be back. :)
     
  12. Tommegow

    Tommegow

    679
    Dec 16, 2004
    Kevin
    Thank you for sharing your test results, thank your employer for us!
    It is so very interesting the reaction/antipathy here. Proves the pot of crabs mode of living for many folks.After I read this thread at another venue, I wonder why you post here anymore?! You obviously are a man of integrity and loyalty, so thanks again
     
  13. Tai Goo

    Tai Goo Banned BANNED

    Apr 7, 2006
    In spite of the hostilities, drama, histrionics and personality conflicts, there’s a lot of things I really like about this forum. Every forum has it’s own special character, texture and flavor. For a couple things, you really won’t find this much different information and opinions all in one place, or get as many responses as fast anywhere else. The pace does get hard to keep up with sometimes, but all in all it can be a lot of fun here (with the right attitude) and a good way to pick stuff up.

    I hope everyone sticks around.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  14. Mace

    Mace

    Apr 8, 2003
    Tai, You are for sure this forums "special character".
    Mace
     
  15. Tai Goo

    Tai Goo Banned BANNED

    Apr 7, 2006
    Mace,... all I’ve done was bump Kevin’s thread up as many times as I possibly could, and bring as much “attention” to it as possible.

    I thought I was doing Kevin a favor.
     
  16. Destraal

    Destraal

    135
    May 28, 2008
    I tried to stay away from this debate, but my outrage has gotten the best of me. So I apologize in advanced.


    Tai: The eye opening part isn't directed at everyone necessarily, more at the constant influx of new blood that think they're doing a "good enough" job.

    You aren't promoting healthy debate. If you were you would've provided some real data, not nebulous references to "scientists and engineers." Mr. Cashen has provided evidence of the effects of faster quench mediums on the final microstructure and hardness. However, you decided to come into the conversation with "so what?" in more words, that's not a request for civil debate, that's looking for a fight.

    People only put up with your antics because your knives look very good. However, talent is no excuse for bad behavior or poor practices, if anything it just makes them even more inexcusable.

    So, please, leave those of us who aren't satisfied with "good enough," alone.
     
  17. Tai Goo

    Tai Goo Banned BANNED

    Apr 7, 2006
    Destraal, nothing is perfect in every respect that I know of. At some point each person must make his or her own judgment call on what is "good enough" and what isn't. If this were not true we would not even know when to call a blade or knife "finished". Each of us has to make that call for ourselves at some point. However, in the long run I think we should always try to improve, experiment with new ideas and do better work as we progress. That's what learning is all about.

    I could ask a few more pointed and specific questions about Kevin's project, but I fear it would only be met with the same type of response, if not worse, than the rest of my posts.

    I really would like to try some of Kevin's quenching fluid when it's ready and see what the advantages are, (if any), over the rest of what's out there and if I think it's worth it... until then, there are others areas of knifemaking I can work on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  18. Justin King

    Justin King

    Nov 8, 2009
    Gentlemen,
    With all due respect to every opinion, nerve and feeling that has been brought to this discussion, there is no need for disruption. Contrary opinions are found in any dicussion involving more than one person. Whether and how we respond to them has as much to do with the future of the conversation as the opinion itself. Tai's posts could have gone without a ripple if they had been ignored or countered without further drama by those who disagree with him.
    My point is, if you see something in your path, and upon closer inspection you come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, shit, then why would you step in it? No offense to anyone, including Tai. I did not mean to say that anyone's opinion is shit, but that if others find it so offensive then why let it own your brain for even a moment? I beg you to move on, people. Even if the aforementioned contrary opinion is intentionally brought up to disrupt the conversation, it will only do so if the other participants make that happen by responding argumentatively instead of dismissively, or not at all.
     
  19. stabman

    stabman Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 17, 2007
    This thread started with information, but devolved into a soap opera.:thumbdn:
    Despite the views of some, it was not due to just one or two people either; it took many to lame it up to the extent which has happened.
     
  20. Nebulae

    Nebulae

    Aug 24, 2009
    ok. ok so have we all vented a little bit?
    so seriously is it possible to get a separate sub forum for metallurgy, materials science, and actual data? mods?
     
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