General Anvil Related Questions

Discussion in 'Hammer & Tongs' started by Ome108, Sep 6, 2014.

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  1. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Very well. I was only trying to offer you some guidance.
    As far as learning in past lives, I'll just let that go.
     
  2. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Very well. I was only trying to offer you some guidance.
    As far as learning in past lives, I'll just let that go.
     
  3. S.Alexander

    S.Alexander

    Jul 7, 2013
    I agree with master Stacy ( :D ) that you should try and make some knives by stock removal before forging. I'm still in the stock removal phase myself, and as much as I want to forge a knife, I continue to practice my stock removal skills.
     
  4. Bo T

    Bo T

    Feb 12, 2011
    Unless it sets to high for you, everything I have read suggests the more weight under the hammer the better. Set it in concrete and grind different radius around the edge.
     
  5. Ome108

    Ome108

    224
    Apr 29, 2014

    Sineparis,
    I wanted to let you know how wrong you were to dismiss getting steel proffessionally hardened.
    I found a very reasonable place that does all sorts of steels, min is 144. And 1.46 lb for h13 triple tempered, 52-56 rc
    My 37 lb piece came out to 54.1 rc
    And tje shipping was under 30.
    When i send my 100lb piece it will cost the same and just 60. For shipping.
    I feel that is a bargain considering most folks cant harden a 100+ piece of steel.
    Jon
     
  6. Matthew Lomas

    Matthew Lomas

    209
    Jan 18, 2004
    Hardness... and mass. Both of these things help prevent the loss of energy. Hardness helps prevent plastic deformation... aka the dent you have in the faces from the hammer, and the mass helps alleviate elastic deformation, which will rob just as much or more energy depending on how severe it is.
     
  7. Ome108

    Ome108

    224
    Apr 29, 2014
    Thank you
     
  8. Mecha

    Mecha Titanium Bladesmith Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 27, 2013
    Be sure to wear your fire-retardant skinny jeans when you finally try out that post anvil.
     
  9. Boogaloo

    Boogaloo

    114
    Jun 20, 2013
    Think you're confusing hippy and hipster cultures there Mecha 😜
     
  10. Ome108

    Ome108

    224
    Apr 29, 2014
    Hi guys,
    I am sanding by hand the mill marks on the flats and radius the edges slighly.
    Hiw to get out scratches left behind by previos grit emory pAper.
    Extra course, course, med, fine and finally 400 grit emory.
    Belt sander worked alot faster than hand sanding.
    Will a random orbital sander help to get a super shiny and smooth surface.
    How far to go with the face , for forging.
    It is all h13 or s7.
    I was told 4140 could have issues with softening in spots that heat got to high a temperature of the anvil.
    Thank you
     
  11. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    ".......I was told 4140 could have issues with softening in spots that heat got to high a temperature of the anvil......"

    Whoever told you that working a 4140 anvil with a hot blade will soften it is making it up. If that was true, all the bladesmith and blacksmith anvils would be no good.
    The tempering point of 4140 for anvil use is much higher than the anvil will be raised to.
     
  12. Ome108

    Ome108

    224
    Apr 29, 2014
    Hi Guys,
    Anyine know if new anvils like peddinghaus and rettlinghaus heat treated thru out the entire anvil, not just the face.
    Materials like s7 and 4140 , a friend at a heat treat place said they would or could get soft spots frim getting to hot, depending on certain variables.
    Thanks,
    Jon
     
  13. Ome108

    Ome108

    224
    Apr 29, 2014
    Did lots of research and alot of folks seem to report that their experience with a larger anvil compared to a smaller one , was almost always softer than the smaller.
    All new and of reputable companies.
    I know there are other variables, and still being a newb, I only know the the weight of the hammer and the hardness, should be considered.
    I have seen a post that said any harder than 58 rc and the edges will have a greater chance of cracking.
    Confusing for a newb wih ultimately will test hardened 100 -300 lb pieces which I will have them all proffessionally hardened. The H-13 will be triple tempered,
    If it is S-7 , it is suggested to cool and avoid heat building up so that it will not mess with the temper.
    Please forgive my apparent ignorance on this subject manner, but am trying hard to rectify that situation.
    By actualy working with a
    heat treater to determine the aloys and in whT measure, would be best for hot working anvils.
    Jon
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2014
  14. SinePari

    SinePari

    906
    Oct 24, 2013
    P' haus are not heat treated in their entirety aka they are not through hard. From what I understand it's just the face that is brought up to heat 1-3/4" deep through induction, and then quenched... I believe Ref'haus anvils claim the same or similar hardening.

    Hardened steel can be subject to annealing or loosing it's temper but an anvils mass should be pretty resilient to forging work heat input... Variables such as shop fires are a different monster and can cause an anvil to lose it's temper... Your H13 and S7 anvils have pretty good hot work properties as well. You don't need an through hard anvil, but having one wouldn't be a loss by any means, especially if it's done properly. I believe Nimba Anvils are through hard and maybe tom clarks Ozark Anvils...
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  15. SinePari

    SinePari

    906
    Oct 24, 2013
    I think you're thinking this thing to death.

    Why would a smaller anvil be harder than a larger anvil?
    Smaller anvils have less thermal mass and cool faster than bigger anvils...

    Regardless of size, it's good practice to dress the edges of an anvil. Why?
    Like the above mentioned thermal mass... When a mass is quenched, areas further away from the center of said thermal mass cool faster and will be harder than areas less proximal to the heated cross-section. Sharp edges on an anvil won't stay sharp very long... errant blows happen and the result can be far more damaging to the edge... It tends to spall off in unpredictable chunks/chips/ slivers....

    In the days of old some of the more advanced manufacturers of cast steel anvils had a science to quenching an anvil just enough to harden the face deep enough, allowing the residual heated mass "temper" the anvil. I believe the same "swag" process was utilized in wrought anvils as well in order to preserve the forge weld between the wrought body and tool steel face as well as prevent the anvil face from being too hard.

    Like blades, there are reasons behind this process. There is soft, there is ideal, and there is too hard. Different manufacturers had different means of attaining "ideal" through the use of different materials as well as different quenching procedures. 52-58 Rc would be ideal as far as hardness is concerned. Lower rc numbers don't entail poor procedure in regards to hardening. Like blades the end purpose or intended use determines target Rc #'s... Your farrier anvils for example; many are composed of ductile iron because of it's spheroid structure tends to be more resilient to damage, produces lower rc #'s, are smaller and more portable, but in application meet the needs of the user.
     
  16. SinePari

    SinePari

    906
    Oct 24, 2013
    Taking into account your location, a HT'd 30 pound piece of steel didn't cost you out the wazzoo.... Oops! Wrong again; A 37 pound and a 100 pound HT'd piece of steel. 137 pounds of steel total... Only thing I'm scratching my head about is you're not factoring this cost the equation?

    Last time I checked tool steel isn't free, and it's most definitely not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
    You likely paid money for the H-13 tool steel that you had heat treated, no?

    Considering my deep pockets and endless cash flow, I get remnant drops of tool steel from my local distributor for $1.80/lb., I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and go with that as a legitimate cost estimate for your 137 pounds of H13 tool steel.

    (#37 ($1.80/lb.=$66.60) + (HT'd @ $54.02) + $28 (S&H)= $148.62

    (#100 (1.80/lb.=$180) + (HT'd @ $146) + $60 (S&H)= $386.00

    Total= $534.62

    "Cost" in my realm of logic centers itself around practicality, time, effort, initial research, contemplating end results, etc. ; overall the accumulated time/ money/ labor it takes to "pull the trigger" and actually accomplish a result...

    Considering the many threads you've created on this topic, leading up to this very thread, I can safely assume that you were in search of an anvil as an "end result". You now have two pieces of hardened H13 tool steel, one weighing #37, the other #100 that you dished out $534.62... That's $3.90/lb. which in all reality sits on the high end of the spectrum of what people would be willing to pay for a "legitimate anvil" in *pristine condition*.


    I would not see this as a bargain, nor would I consider it to be practical by any stretch of the imagination. I will consider my inaccuracies when replying from here on out...
     
  17. SinePari

    SinePari

    906
    Oct 24, 2013
    A skill is developed when the brain transmits executive directives to the hands and a medium is manipulated.

    No matter how many threads you create... No matter how many good questions you ask... No matter how much knowledge you compile... The only medium you've manipulated thus far is scattered impulsive hypothetical conjecture... If this is what you believe the intent and purpose of this subforum is, you're mistaken...
     
  18. Ome108

    Ome108

    224
    Apr 29, 2014
    Hi,
    The price I paid is 1.00 per pound , when i bought 3 pieces of h 13 , round and square. Shipping was 30 -50 ups ground.
    My logic may not be as advance as yours, and being a beginner , I am reading and asking questions.
    They may not be all the best , but I find it very helpful.
    I do not have the ability to travel and go to hammerins or blacksmith meetings, I wish I did.
    I am not looking to buy an anvil just yet. I am having fun experimenting with different steel alloys and tool steels , that will be hardened.
    The cost is irrelevant to me, because i am learning how to create some 100-150 lb post anvils, to test forging on them.
    When I can forge better, without hitting the bare anvil too often, and I have found the steel I like the best, I will go and buy an anvil.
    It is too soon for me to get an anvil, I would not want to use it until I do more forging.
    I like to forge better than grinding on my new grinder , for making a knife.
    I love to research, and experiment, and compare results. If that is wrong, oh well, I am not hurting anyone.
    You have always given me great info, I do not know why my asking questions demands such a responce.
    I hope I explained why I am buying these pieces of steel and not just buying one big anvil.
    Like I said, the cost is not relevant to me. When I am ready, i will spend maybe 2000. On a refflinghaus or a peddinghaus.
    Maybe even a jymm hoffman anvil out of h13 at 110 lbs for a small anvil, and a 220 or 265 lb larger anvil.
    Fun, I like it. Research. Fun again. Why so serious?
    Jon
     
  19. Ome108

    Ome108

    224
    Apr 29, 2014
    So, would a 150 lb thru entire piece Ht'd , out perform a anvil of same weight but only the surface deep to a couple of inches?
    Thanks,
    Jon
     
  20. Mecha

    Mecha Titanium Bladesmith Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Dec 27, 2013
    Apparently none of your many incarnations taught you how to not be a pompous clattering buttock.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
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