OKC's SP series 1095 switch to 1075 steel...

Discussion in 'Ontario Knife Company' started by PocketKnifeJimmy, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. Yonose

    Yonose

    Jul 10, 2017
    Your link seemed to confirm what I said. “A salt water bath after heat treat” ie slowly cooling via salt water. I forgot to add the word “cooling” as I assumed it would be obvious. Thanks for the link though, good stuff. I wonder how they cool 5160.
     
  2. buckfynn

    buckfynn

    546
    May 1, 2011
    Please quote from my link where you see a salt water bath?

    All I see is that it mentions "molten" salt bath which is not the same as a water salt bath. Do you understand the difference between the two?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  3. buckfynn

    buckfynn

    546
    May 1, 2011
    @Yonose Below are photos of a show a molten salt bath in action.

    "Would like to share my process of heat treating CPM-3V,
    This was done at the knife shop of my friend. I lets the worker perform because molten nitrate salt is quit dangerous to who's inexperienced.
    Let the picture speak for itself :D
    Here is my process.
    Stainless foil wrapped
    Stress relief at 1125F soak 2hour, furnace cool overnight
    Austenitizing 1960F
    Quench in 500F molten nitrate salt, equalize for 2 minute
    Air cool
    Remove foil and straight to L2N, soak overnight
    2 x Temper at 400F each"
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    Compliments of shqxk. The initial thread can be found at this link at BF.
     
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  4. dingy

    dingy

    Feb 19, 2008
    Hi Yonose, I have both 1075 and 1095 sp10s , just have expriences using 1095 ones , can you feel the diffriences between 1095 and 1075 ones on cutting and chopping retention?
     
  5. buckfynn

    buckfynn

    546
    May 1, 2011
    @Yonose In the link below is another interesting discussion here on BF concerning marquenching.

    Salt bath ?

    Notice in post # 2 of the thread by JCaswellwhere he mentions the potential dangers of water and oil when dealing with molten salt baths.

    ...I've used these things for probably 10 years and have never been burned (which is more than I can say for forging).
    Obviously you want to keep water or oil out of your salt bath when it's at temperature because these things cause sputtering and popping as they vaporize (in high-temp salt) and that can get messy and potentially dangerous. I always wear a full face shield and welding gloves when using the hot salts--usually a welding jacket too...
     
  6. Yonose

    Yonose

    Jul 10, 2017
    I can feel that the 1095 version works better at chopping, both in terms of performance and edge retention. It’s subtle, but with the weight of the blade being what it is it makes a difference to me. Batoning or prying, can’t really tell the difference. They both will chip and/or roll at the edge if abused.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  7. Yonose

    Yonose

    Jul 10, 2017

    You obviously know more (an incredible understatement)about the subject than myself. I didn’t mean that it was a bath comparable to a “warm water bath.” Different salts have different temperatures at which they change states, I guess I assumed there was something else in solution which brought that number down enough where it would cool, rather than reheat (or actually melt) the steel. That and the preface “mar”— meaning “sea” is apparently misleading to the uninformed. At those temperatures, is it possible that some elements from the salt combine with those of the steel? Specifically, sodium or potassium or calcium nitrate molecules unbonding and replacing some of the carbides with nitrides? I’m sure my utter lack of knowledge of the fundamentals of chemistry is frustrating, so apologies for that (both retroactively and in advance.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  8. Yonose

    Yonose

    Jul 10, 2017
    Gotcha. I see what you mean.
     
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  9. dingy

    dingy

    Feb 19, 2008
    thank you for sharing your exprience , cool.
     
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  10. Roguer

    Roguer

    927
    Jan 5, 2015
    5160 SP-10 with full tang and micarta handle and solid pummel tang type like on RDs and such. Yes and with Hilt. :D
     
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  11. mark70

    mark70

    42
    Apr 8, 2017
    in a website I read that the most recent models of sp-10 have a greater thickness around 6.80 mm instead of 6.35 mm

    it would be to check with users who have purchased newer models (from April, December 2016 / 2017/2018/2019), mine is from March 2016 the thickness is 6.35 mm

    :D (hypothesize) :D that Ontario when replacing steels in the SP-10 marine raiders from 1095c to 1075c it also increases the thickness thus compensating for the performance gap between the two steels taking it from 6.35 mm to 6.80 mm :D (repeated this is just my hypothesis) :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
  12. Blue Sky

    Blue Sky Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 16, 2002
    By all accounts 1075 is tougher than 1095 so making it thicker should be the opposite of necessary. More likely 1075 comes in slightly thicker stock from the manufacturer so they just went with it, or it has a heavier coating?
     
  13. mark70

    mark70

    42
    Apr 8, 2017
    1075 c has less carbon percentage (it is more suitable to be used in the woods (survival) 1075c is a softer steel than 1095 c for this reason (I hypothesized) that ontario had increased its thickness, so as not to make the bowie bend in the points most subject to stress (the tip and the tang)

    I believe that the 1075 c used on the new sp-10 was a correct choice a coating of the blade would often do nothing but stop the bowie during the cutting phase :rolleyes:
     
  14. jux t

    jux t Gold Member Gold Member

    730
    Jan 10, 2018
    I'll have to double check, but I believe my 1075 sp5 is thinner and lighter than my 1095 versions.
     
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  15. msass74

    msass74

    908
    Mar 28, 2010
    My sp1 says sepy 2018 on the box so it must be 1075 but i also have the sp1-95 (older version ) love them both
     
  16. Beastchopper

    Beastchopper

    244
    Jun 23, 2018
    I blasted Ontario's switch over before, but some of that was my personal dissapointment that they were moving to the same steel as condor. For a cheapo dude like me that loves big fat chopping machetes, I prefer a wider variety of steels from two of my favorite makers.
    To the guy thats complaining about the sp-5 switch over, if he convex's the edge of that beast, it will bite better and hold it's shape against any kind of rock-solid hardwood. Also, Ontarios are cheaper than kbars for the most part. For USA made large blades, Ontario comes in at a very low price point. Probably the lowest in their class. It makes sense for them to tightly control costs on their value based products. While it is a pain in the ass to resharpen the blades more often, it is true that my Condor 1075 machetes have only taken chips when contacting rock/grit on a root, or a chop that followed through to the ground. My 1095 Junglas has taken chips from wood, one of which is almost too deep to sharpen out. Ontario's 5160 will not chip or roll no matter how much abuse I heap on it, but like the 1075, it does need to be resharpened a little more often. Also, 1075 sharpens up much faster and easier than other HC steels. It's very noticable. I think a lot of people use and think about smaller knives than the big heavy machetes I use, and in that instance, the value of edge retention > toughness. I prefer toughness and value to edge retention and a higher price point.
     
  17. not2sharp

    not2sharp Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 29, 1999
    So by their admission Ontario Knives has been defrauding their customers for years, substituting 1075 for 1095 without letting anyone know. I am glad to hear that 1075 is such a fantastic improvement. So fantastic that the blister packaging on the SP-10 that I just purchased today lists the blade steel simply as “High carbon steel”.

    Let me suggest that the issue isn’t the merit or lack-there-of in switching to 1075. It is the damaged credibility that comes from the way it has been done. As far as I am concerned they can go ahead and mark all of their junk “surgical stainless” the stuff is heavily coated that no one would know. They are a domestic company that has learned how to compete with their low end foreign competitors by sinking to their level of disrepute. Right now if they claim they have found a way to make knives from superior steels only fools would believe them.

    I am lumping them in with the many other late great American brands, they may be made here but they are just as bad as the guys making stuff over there....

    N 2s
     
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  18. dirc

    dirc

    Jan 31, 2018
    I think this thread, and other posts by @Toooj directly refute your point. Not only did they list 1075 on this page specifically http://ontarioknife.com/sp-10-raider-bowie.html but they made posts about which ones were changing on these forums.

    Which evidence do you have that they substituted 1075 for 1095 without letting anyone know for years?
     
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  19. Blue Sky

    Blue Sky Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 16, 2002
    I just looked at the link you posted, and it lists the material in the description as 1075, and in the additional info section as 1095. So, a little room still for confusion.
     
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  20. not2sharp

    not2sharp Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 29, 1999
    Maybe somebody should tell BladeHq. It looks like the entire Spec plus line (except the SP-10) is still shown as 1095 steel. And they are not the only ones.

    n2s
     
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