Slovenia Ebay Axe heads

Discussion in 'Axe, Tomahawk, & Hatchet Forum' started by cityofthesouth, Jul 22, 2016.

  1. ipt

    ipt

    60
    May 14, 2013
    Oooo. The topor should have real russian handle...
    They call it "топорище". Search for images... and you'll get drawings...
     
  2. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    Roger that.
     
  3. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    [​IMG]

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    Not sure I can get the handle drop out of my wood for that last one there.

    Did I mention I appreciate the feedback? :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  4. ipt

    ipt

    60
    May 14, 2013
    Search for drawings by ГОСТ.
    This is a Russian standart...
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    [​IMG]

    I think I might have to compromise, being somewhere between the two. Most of the measurements that I have drawn here meet the specs for the last one down in that set of three schematics.

    My hand eye is decent but in order to do the Russian ГОСТ number by number I run out of wood on the handle drop.

    Closer?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  6. ipt

    ipt

    60
    May 14, 2013
    Getting close...

    "б" is right one.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. chumaman

    chumaman

    416
    Nov 13, 2012
  8. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    http://www.jekloruse.si/rocno-orodje/sekire-columbus/

    Chumaman – thank you for the link. We were trying to figure out where some of the heads that we see are from. Looks like you might have answered this for us for quite a few of them. Looks like many are still made today but since that company has been operating for the last hundred years I would be hard pressed to tell new from old unless there are patterns that just aren’t made anymore.

    I appreciate the resources you shared.

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    IPT – it’s still in the works lol.
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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    rjdankert likes this.
  9. chumaman

    chumaman

    416
    Nov 13, 2012
    On these slovenian site
    http://www.jekloruse.si/en/about-us/hmezad-jeklo/history/
    Have these pattern...and if you investing history...in that region time cca 1800. is Austro-Ungar state BUT that is ex-YU now Slovenia ,Croatia,Bosnien and Serbien.
    These patterns has have regional names and these axes are here for long time :) because Austrians katalog these patterns..in these period they are logging Oak from these region.
    http://www.hkisdt.hr/podaci/dokumenti/dubravac_na.pdf
    On these site you can read about Oak forest in my region and how important is he in history....
    http://hipsb.hr/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Programska-knjizica-slavonske-sume.pdf
     
  10. samek

    samek

    202
    May 7, 2003
    Another axe factory in Slovenia, 10 km from factory Jeklo Ruše - Tovarna kos in srpov Lovrenc (Scythe and sickel factory), working from 1881

    http://www.tksl.si/

    Samek
     
  11. cityofthesouth

    cityofthesouth

    Jan 29, 2014
    Ah yeah, this thread is getting good.
     
  12. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    Chumaman, when I read through the third link you shared, it reminds me of the common history we all have with our trees and traditions. Also how tools evolve to suit their environment and our needs. I do have to copy, paste, and translate from Slovenian to English but it is worth it. Thank you for the resources. I also noticed you have been a forum member for a while and I appreciate you stepping in to share. Here are some of the catalog pages you shared - just for conversation:

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    I am still working through the history of Slovenia’s forests and the historical write-up of wood industry and exports – very interesting, thank you.

    That is really interesting as well. Thank you. There are a lot current patterns that seem to match up with some that are really pretty old?

    *I remembered this post of your axes and the classy sheaths - about half way down.
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...homemade-sheath-pic-s-if-you-got-em-post-em-D



    Sickle and Scythe?
    [​IMG]
    Reminds me of someone...

    [​IMG]

    I hacked out the rough shape last night and pretty much have a good hang. That template was traced on the wood’s thicker side. After I roughed it close to the blue scribe, I stood it in my vise and cut it off flat – it’s still thick on that side. While not the best template, it gives me a start in case I have to make a similar handle…

    [​IMG]

    So, I'm goofing around with this Russian hatchet/axe and I think IPT is right about it needing a "Russian" hang. That is something that I haven’t done before and it is different from what I am used to. Trying to reproduce it from some of the diagrams I found left me stumped as how to have the handle drop from the head to the swell. Ours here go on straight in but ours don’t have elongated toes like these. I see why they need the drop. They look a little closed when you hold them up but when you use it, the center of the blade makes contact first. I’m used to hanging an axe that I can sit bit down on a counter and the swell touches with the bit contact pretty much centered.

    The Euro handles I see for sale on the auction site we all know have this funny taper cut to them. I am beginning to understand why.
    Not having enough wood vertically leaves me without much of the natural drop I’d like. So what I am ending up with is something that strikes in the center of the bit:

    [​IMG]

    Sitting with its swell on a level surface with the bit it looks open but if you lift it up to where the diagrams show – It is dead center. I guess I am going to end up with one that looks like the 3rd one here:

    [​IMG]

    With a hang to make it more like:

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    Jake Pogg, do Mother Beams work on Mother in Laws as well?

    COTS, I blame this on you for asking. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  13. chumaman

    chumaman

    416
    Nov 13, 2012
  14. cityofthesouth

    cityofthesouth

    Jan 29, 2014
    I'm innocent! Heh. Me personally, I don't see any problem with it being a little open ... even if it looks closed. That big wide bit is kinda deceiving but as long as it strikes the way you like, it must be right. Looks like a carving machine to me.
     
  15. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Thanks,everyone,for this illuminating discussion!COTS,for initially asking the question,our Slovenian friends for all this fascinating info...(an incredible synthesis of East and West,the Carpathian/Balkan and the Germanic axe-making traditions...All those ancient,ore-rich regions....Incredibly old history of metalworking....).

    Special thanks to Agent_H,for your incredible patience with the research into all this obscure data,inspite of the laguage barrier,you're a Gentleman and a Scholar!:)

    Your hang is looking good.The photo of the two axes you've said you liked pictures store-boughten,birch hafts,the knot in each of those is symbolic of "quality" of the products in the Old Country today...:)....
    As in most places in the world nowadays,the axemanship and all related skills are a thing of the past,so that your take on the ergonomics of that axe is as good as anyone's!
    (On that yellow diagram the three hafts are indicated as a "felling",on the top,then the oe for "limbing"(?:)....(the one you've come closest to),then the "carpenter's" style hang.
    But,again,it's the user that determines what flies,and i think that your haft will end up making this a good,useful tool,possibly Very good...

    (The Mother Beam,with it's intersecting Stove Beam,formed a grid,one resulting quarter of which was a designated Women's Quarter(Печной(stove)/Женский(female) Кут(compartment)...It's social implications,(that i know of...),was to restrict the men from entering it....Did it work the other way too,did it contain the wimmins,especially the Mother-in Law,making the rest of the house safe?Dunno...(but somehow doubt it....you know how it is...:)

    Thanks,and the best regards to everyone
     
  16. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    COTS, my comment was worded wrong… It should have been “Thank you for asking about them because I was curious as well.”

    I try to picture someone with non-existent English skills popping in here and asking questions whose answers are really deeper than “Where are these axe heads from?” It’s kind of like someone showing up in this forum and asking, “So, what is the story with American axes”? Too much to explain outside of cultural, historical, and industrial developments in metal working as a background. Lots of patience with my ignorance – that is appreciated.

    IPT is super helpful as always and builds up these kinds of axes/tools all the time, so I appreciate his input - I appreciate everyone’s input actually.

    I know more than I did before this but realize the surface has just been scratched. In fact, I am still looking at stuff that comes up now that I have some search terms in Russian, Slovenian, Finnish, and Czech– I might break Google translate.

    I’m also impressed with the amount of history around these areas and the relationship to timber as a way of life for the each group. The timber history of the regions read much like that of the one we are familiar with here in the US but much more multi-lateral. This particular history of different ethnic groups and changes in occupation of one sort or another isn’t something that the average American would learn about unless they have personal/familial ties to there, take a history course, or take interest in learning about it on their own.

    Jake Pogg, thank you for sharing all the info, your insight, and the kind words. I think you are right about what I ended up with as far as a handle for that thing – a hybrid so far. It’s the length of the Carpenter axe with the shape more or less that of that “limbing” axe, and offsetting the hang to mimic that sloped tongue. I’ll see when I finish it off. Starting with a 2.5x2.5” piece of wood left me a little short for one of the big aspects for hanging each of the patterns.

    Knowing the words for felling, limbing, and carpenter in Russian when I was perusing examples might have helped lol. There are three large red cedar rounds in my garage I’m using as my new chopping block(s) and that Topor sunk considerably deeper into it than my sharpened hatchets – including the one I used to rough shape the handle. Of course cedar is soft and I imagine it is the head’s thin profile with the longer handle…. I think if I were to do it again (and I just might) I would follow a slightly more traditional pattern. I do have another 18.5” of that Ash to reproduce the handle closer within a couple of millimeters here and there scaled down. I’ll see this one through and use it. If it is unwieldly then it probably will be the fault of my handle and not the head.

    I haven’t really had much experience hatchet carving but this is the chopping block. 41” high made from three successively smaller rounds. 15”, 14, and 12” set on each other. Each round makes a step or rest for what I’m working – long to short. I just put the 36inch handle on there for example.

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    Google identifies “Kirves” as Estonian but is also used in Finland for “ax”. The above image also seems to look a lot like the one I ended up with as well. I know Finland was occupied by Russia and the stories of their two main axe makers of the time state they benefited from ramped up production and export of their axes to Russia.

    Some of the Topor pattern axes we have been talking about look an awful lot like a couple of those shown in older Finnish catalogs. Also The Karelian region that connects Finland to Russia is mentioned a lot in the exchange of goods and I suppose culture and practices which would include the traditional trades and their tools.


    So back to those listed axes.

    It would seem to me that there are quite a few of those heads that fit the old and new profiles produced in the area in which they are sold. And as established I also think some of them come from other regions as well. Without much more to reference I would say some may actually be pretty old and some of them newer but quite well-used. Some of the patterns are very different than we are used to here for reasons of regional need, tradition, and culture. That right there is as interesting as the axes themselves in a sense. Several of them do look like they would make good full size axes for splitting or just plain chopping stuff.

    It took 11-12 days to get the head from the fellow in Slovenia – I’ve had domestic shipping take longer albeit it was the shipper’s issue.

    This is also a little off-topic but as I was looking through stuff, I took a closer look at Finnish axes. A few of the images were linked to auction sites/listings specific to Finland. Huuto (Finnish eBay/Craigslist setup) is a site that kept coming up. Not knowing the language but interested in the Billnäs Bruk “Kemi” axes, I joined the site and emailed/messaged 6-7 sellers about purchasing traditional axe heads, entire axes, or even maybe having them listed in mainstream places to make them more accessible to people… I’m not afraid to fail or have someone think I’m undereducated due to language barriers. They can reach that conclusion based on something else… Sometimes asking questions pays off, sometimes not.

    There are some traditional “kirves” headed my way for winter projects. That probably will be a different story altogether - those will need some experimenting with and larger pieces of wood to do right.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  17. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Agent_H,just in case that it may help in your search,i'll list a few terms here,related to your numbered diagram above.

    (A brief aside:You have mentioned a number,of Very wide-ranging regions,from Finland to Slovenia.It is Most unfortunate fact that most of these,to whatever degree,but were severely raped,culturally and otherwise, by the Soviet regime...Which does make the russian a most practical language in research of this subject...It's a tragedy that it must be so,but,here we have it...I happen to be fluent in that language,and will try to list the less-common,more specific terms;some of which are archaic,but are still in use among the cogniscenti,the axe-maniacs,the toolmakers,et c ).

    1.Eye:Проух.Проушина.Всад.

    2.The Flat of the blade:Лопасть.Лезвие

    3.Toe:Носок.

    4.Edge:Режующая Кромка(abbrev.РК,specifically the cutting edge),Лезвие(more general,as in above in 2.)

    5.Heel:Пятка.

    6.Poll:Обух.Тыльная часть всада(when speaking of the inside of the eye).

    7."Spur"(kinda specific to this style of axes):Шип.Отщип.

    8.Haft:Топорище.Ручка.Рукоять.

    Hope it helps...

    On the more general cultural note:I think that it is very constructive to view the European and the American axe cultures comparatively.
    One of the things that it helps to keep in mind is that in Europe people have been competing(viciously:)for all resources,the Forest Products first and foremost,for a long,LONG,time...
    Vs the US,where the trees are only just beginning to become scarce(relatively speaking).

    Therefore,whereas i the US the most common axe is still the Felling-type axe,with it's blade geometry aimed at the Parting of a Chip(a very rough ratio being 1:5;as in the blade being 1/2" thick 2 1/2" from the edge),the European axes were now for a long time designed to Process the already felled timber,as in some sort of Hewing work.
    (Finland beig a notable exception,with their still ample coniferous forests).

    Consequently,on that video above,where Andrey is torturing that larch log for the Mother beam,you can see him struggling as his axe is sticking very badly...His motion of freeing it up after every hit is automatic,many years of using a too-general tool,not quite right for any of the purposes,as it has to cover too many of them...(the peasants/craftsmen being poor and ill-used,and not in pocession of a very varied tool-kit...

    But,in short,most russian axes are very thin-bladed,and so are many other European types...
     
  18. cityofthesouth

    cityofthesouth

    Jan 29, 2014
    NP, I took it as such! :p
     
  19. Agent_H

    Agent_H

    Aug 21, 2013
    Пиво для всех - я буду платить!
     
  20. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Fantastic,you're on!

    And over a few of those,the axe-freak conversation must surely begin to flow....

    And here's a brief historical note on the background of these axes....

    No one really knows where exactly they have originated.Their evolution took place slowly,imperceptibly changing the details,till the whole began to appear quite different,even unique.
    Now,Scandinavia is right across the street from NW Russia,and some W-NW regions are plain occupied territories,previously occupied by a set of Germanic people(Estonia,and other Baltic regions),AND,during the Viking age(nominally 7th to 11th c.c.)it is known that the so-called Ost-Vikings have sailed into the White sea,and from there descended the (eventually)Volga R. drainage to the Caspian,and have been doing it Regularly,for some centuries.
    Despite all of the above,it is NOT ok to ascribe any of the features of "traditional"(?)Russian tools to the Norse people.Despite the fact that VERY many artifacts are virtually indistinguishable from those found in Birka,or Hedeby,or many of other,important Viking age sites.
    During the 40-ies and 50-ies,Joe Stalin has publicly denounced a number of scientists that were inclined to think that.They were termed the "vicious Normanists",and were publicly derided and subsequently executed.
    (Today,Putin's border-line fascist regime is heading there again,it is entirely unpatriotic,and soon will be punishable,to attribute any of the achievements of the Great Russian People to the lowly,corrupt Europeans).
    However,and most thankfully,this horse-hooey does not apply to me...So i can,and will,note the peculiar similarities between these axes and the Finnish axe-making traditions.

    The very deep,tubular eye peculiar to the Germanic "goose-wing" hewing axes,and the common Finnish ones has an inverted conical shape,the small end towards the top of the axe.(That is for the ruralites to use less than perfect stick to haft their tools,and to be able to space it out on occasion outside in the weather,for when it swells,it just backs itself out,and needs hardly anything to be made tight and functional again).

    Similarly,the earlier Russian axes were hafted the same way.An inverted cone.
    The archaeology in that unhappy part of the world has always struggled heroically,against great economic and political challenges,and so the axes are not studied to any great extent.But these earlier axes do have an approx.designation,being commonly termed "15th to 17th century type".

    On a certain type of a Finnish axe,the so-called "Karelian type(can be found in the Billnas,and other old catalogues),the bottom part,the "sleeve" of that long eye is abbreviated,leaving a part hanging in the front(and sometimes one in the back)of the haft.
    I b'lieve that the "spur" of the typical Russian axe is the vestige of same.

    The large volume of the eye is related,as discussed above,to the softness of birch,as the predominant haft material.

    The rest has developed according to the local needs and usage,plus the necessity to combine tools from sheer poverty,so,the combination chopping/hewing tool....
     

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