the khukuri in combat

Discussion in 'Himalayan Imports' started by DannyinJapan, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. Yvsa


    May 18, 1999
    1- Well Ken it's probably not so bad here as some people might say, or think, but there is always the danger of being in even the right place at the wrong time.
    Here in Tulsa in the very midst of the "Bible Belt" there have been shootings and knifings in the high scale parts of town.

    2- Ken, I'm not sure what the situation is in all the states, but here in Oklahoma myself and many friends openly wear 4"-5" fixed blade knives openly on our belts.
    Walosi, who lives in Kentucky, has a Concealed Carry License which permits him to carry any legal firearms and or knives that he can conceal.
    Arizona is a really free state where you can openly carry a handgun on your person anywhere you want to although it might be prudent not to do that if you appear a certain way in some high scale places. You might not be arrested for openly carrying the gun but you might be arrested for other things.
    Each state has its own laws concerning the carrying of knives and/or guns.
    There's even a couple of states that are as bad as Australia in their lack of carry freedoms and/or ownership.:(
    Their crime rates are higher than freer states!!!!

    It's all part of Being Free and responsible for your own actions!!!!:D

    3- I only brought up the meds as a friend because of the last time you said things you didn't mean here. I myself had to come and apologize not so long ago for actions here that were out of character for me because I had went off of my anti depression meds that I could not afford to buy.
    (Now I have a Dr who helps us out by furnishing me free samples of an even better antidepressant.)
    It's my way of thinking that those of us who have to take such medicines might have to remind those others of us who have to take such medicines that we are acting out of sorts, still/again. I know I would appreciate it if I should go off the deep end again.
    However your mileage might vary.:p
    No offense intended, should have said that in the former post, sorry.:)
  2. brantoken


    Feb 6, 2004
    the US isn't that violent, it's just in certain areas, like anywhere
    else, most people are couch potatoes. They are most likely to violate you with their political opinions.

    You can be arrested here for a pocket knife as well. Technically
    you could wear a Khuh in plain view, but I assure you if you showed up at public event with one strapped on you would quickly be
    arrested for spitting on the side walk or something else. People
    wouldn't want you wandering about. I really wouldn't want an officer to see one in my car either if he pulled me over, I just don't think they would react well at all.

    I'm also pretty sure that a khuk for self defence wouldn't be the best choice either, especially when you consider the number
    of hand guns floating about here. 3 or 4 for every person in the country. Pulling out a khuk would be a great way to get shot. If someone is giving you trouble, Odds are they have a gun. In counties where guns are controled, I could see the fear factor would play a larger role. I think "combat moves" are lot of fun to talk about because I'm bored silly most of the time. But I will say it is a great way to justiy a new Khuk, and I do intend to run the "self defence" concept on my wife as soon a possible. She's not afraid of much, I could get lucky, it might work?

    having said all of that, I still want a chitlange to wave about and play at my martial arts moves, well just because I think it's a fun
    game, and I like to play with knives, So why should I justify.

    well I still do need some justifcations, I still need that Chitlange.......Hmmmm.
  3. MauiRob


    Nov 15, 2000
    I think the chief benefits of martial arts for me are:

    1. personal/spiritual development (ie makes me less of an a*****E)
    2. fitness
    3. I have less fear in situations and therefore are less likely to show it, or worse to compensate by giving off attitude.
    4. I do think that if it hits the fan I'll be able to move better, possibly employ some version of a technique or pin, and maybe just maybe have more awareness of where my opponent is vs. where my body is to not get shot when its down and dirty at 2ft range and grappling for the gun he's holding happens.

    More than likely in #4 I'd get shot.

    Anyway, (some) MA (especially the Budo) are an excellent way to produce self-aware, concientious, citizens.
  4. BruiseLeee


    Sep 7, 2001
    It makes you less of an artichokE? :confused: I've always been more of a celery myself. Perhaps I should try to remedy this. :rolleyes: Celeries don't spell too good either. :)
  5. MauiRob


    Nov 15, 2000
    Not to fear Bruise, as you know both Artichoke and Celery have HEART, so spelling is not as impertont:D
  6. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004

    None of my information is from the internet. Its all down to what I have learnt over the years through my interest in Martial Arts, books which I am required to learn through my Martial Arts syllabus in order to proceed through the grades and also through my instructors knowledge and teachings which he has learnt over his many years of Martial Arts.

    Danny, these are the subjects and books I am required to study to achieve my grades and bear in mind this does not include the kata and techniques I am also required to perform to an acquired level.

    Yellow Belt & Orange = History of Kickboxing and basic Sports Science
    Green Belt = History of Thai Boxing and further Sports Science
    Blue Belt = basic history of the Gurkhas and the Kukri and further study of basic sports science.
    Red Belt = basic sword history and we are required to begin study of the “Book Of Five Rings, Go Rin No Sho” by Miyamoto Musashi.
    Purple Belt = further sports Science study, where we are required to begin study of “Flexibility for Sport” by Bob Smith.
    Brown Belt = we are required to study in full Captain WE Fairbairns book, “All-in Fighting”.
    Black Belt (Shodan) = we are required to begin study of “Bugles and a Tiger” by John Masters. As well as furthering our knowledge in the other subjects
    2nd Dan (Nidan), Books required for this grade are; "The Japanese Sword" by Kanzan Sato, "Sports Nutrition" by Anita Bean and "The Samurai - a Military History" by S.Turnbull.
    3rd Dan (Sandan) = we need to know “The Gurkha” by John Parker, as well as further study on previous subjects.
    4th Dan (Yondan) = books reqired for this grade are; “Classical Bujutsu” by D.F. Draeger, Sun Tzu’s book “The Art Of War”, and “The Craft of the Japanese Sword” by Leon and Hiroko Kapp, with Yoshindo Yoshihara.
    5th Dan (Godan), books required for this grade; "Classical Budo" by DF Draeger, "Modern Bujutsu & Budo" also by D.F. Draeger.
    Etc, etc!!

    Obviously you can see this is an indepth syllabus. I am not yet at these higher grade, infact I am only just about to go for my brown belt, but I have started learning (with great interest may I add) what I will be required to later, to make my life easier and to give me a headstart!!

    I'm sure some of you guys have worked out by now that Simon Hengle is my partner/spouse, whatever you call it as well as the Head Instructor (Sensei) of my Martial Arts Dojo. I apologise if this annoys some of you, as he is not "welcome" on this HI forum. But alot of my information has been learnt through him and he is a VERY VERY highly respected Martial Artist here in the UK. Simon has an extensive Martial Arts book collection and has pretty much dedicated his life to the practise and study of anything to do with Martial Arts. Bruce Lee was a great believer in extensive research to further himself as a Martial Artist, so is Simon, and his book collection reflects that!

    In the late 80's through to late 90's, Simon had a very good relationship with the Ninja schools here in Plymouth, teaching them kenjutsu, batto jutsu and hand to hand combat. The head of the Ninjutsu school back then regulary used to go to Simon to further his knowledge and introduce what he learnt into their Ninjutsu schools. The two top instructors in Plymouth (at that time) had spent considerable time in Japan under Hatsumi Sensei and knew their Ninjutsu. Simon also encouraged them to re-search their arts true history, which sadly they never did. Both have now retired from martial arts but they are still good friends.

    So there you have it, my sources of information. I apologise if I have in anyway offended you, as that is the impression I get, it was not/is not my intention.
  7. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004
    Hi Spectre,

    Can't deny the wording. However, technically it is incorrect "according" to the research I have done in the past. Often Western Sensei use incorrect terminology in their styles name due to lack of understanding of Japanese Martial History. A frequent mistake is when Karate styles use "Ryu".

    Its either a Budo art OR a Bujutsu art, not a mixture of both as they are contradictary in terms.
    The answer lies in a question, which of the two do you practise in?

    1. In order of priority for your training;
    A) Combat
    B) Discipline
    C) Morals

    2. In order of priority for your training;
    A) Morals
    B) Discipline
    C) Aesthetic form

    (Please note in no.2, that combat is not a requirement per say)

    If the training in your Dojo gives priority to no.1, then you are doing a Bujutsu form, if your Dojo follows the priorities of no.2, you are doing a Budo form. All the top historians consider Ninjutsu to be a Bugei/Bujutsu format.

    Classic examples of a bujutsu arts are Ninjutsu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (which has Ninjutsu as part of its curriculum) and Kyujutsu, Kenjutsu etc etc.

    Classical examples of budo arts are Iaido, Kendo(the 17th century format) and Keyudo etc etc.

    You then have Gendai Budo formats such as Kendo (1900), Judo, Aikido, Karate Do etc etc which should not be confused with the traditional Budo arts. It has taken me ages to get my head around all this, and i probably haven't explained it well atall, its just something everyone will have to understand in their own way through your own research to make sence of it all, if that makes sence!!!!!
    i'm off now, my head is spinning!!
  8. DannyinJapan


    Oct 9, 2003
    I was not particularly offended, but I was concerned about some specific comments which are not only incorrect but might lead people to believe that certain body types would be required to learn martial arts.

    I can understand where some of it comes from. I have lived here in Japan for three years and I know for a fact that the Japanese people will "lie" about their own history because they don't know it, don't want to believe it, don't consider it important, and don't want foreigners to know the truth.

    I can just hear some Japanese guy telling Don that ninjas were very short and tall people couldnt do it.
    (Ever since 1945 that sort of thing is common)
    Why ? Anglo-Americans are much bigger than japanese, so they had to redefine themselves as small, smart, sneaky people.
    500 years ago, Japanese martial arts heroes were described as larger than average.
    After the Meiji period(influx of large westerners), that changed 180 degrees.
    Japanese people are not used to being called out for lying or just making stuff up, they dont correct each other here very often.
    When I went to the movies with my wife back in Texas, she nearly had a heart attack when I told some kids to shut up, they were talking and playing in front of us.
    She nearly died from fear of these little teenage peckerheads but the people all around us told me a big thank you.

    You will have to forgive me when I refuse to accept the teachings of a man named Don over the Teachings of Hatsumi Sensei.
    You mentioned reading Stephen Turnbull. Good, now please read "ninja: japans secret warrior cult a true history" by Turnbull.
  9. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004
    Hello Danny,

    I have a copy of that book available and on my previous posts, some of the information is from the Turnbull book about Ninjutsu history.

    Regarding Don F Draegar, he is a highly acclaimed historian of Oriental Martial Arts. One has to take his views extremely seriously as no westerner before (except perhaps Will Adams) or since has had so many doors open to him by the Japanese MA community.
    Don F Draegar made the comment about height having witnessed Ninja in action and having lengthy discussions.....

    That comment was not intended in a way to say taller people could not acheive general or even excellent ninjutsu skills, but that at the time when ninja were most active (from Iga and Koga province) they were required to be able to fit into very small spaces of that era. Is this not an unacceptable thought bearing in mind how small the Japanese are in comparison to westerners even today?

    I appreciate your comments and ones loyalty to Hatsumi Sensei, but try to keep an open mind. I

    Cheers, Kohei
  10. Spectre


    Nov 3, 1998

    Draeger was respected. However, his scholarship is not of the top mark. If you truly wish to read someone who can write in authority in English on Japan read the works of Karl Friday, Ph.d. He is professor of Japanese history at the University of Georgia as well as holding menkyo-kaiden in the Kashima Shinryu. His book,"Legacies of the Sword" explains many of these subjects at a depth never before reached in English. Meik and Diane Skoss would be two others whose books should be read. Meik spent twenty five years in Japan, reads and writes Japanese fluently, and is menkyo-kaiden in two separate ryu.

    Take the many translations of the Go Rin No Sho as an example. Two things are necessary for a successful translation: 1)An ability to fluently read classical (not modern) Japanese and 2) menkyo-kaiden in Miyamoto Musashi's Niten ichi ryu.

    We've had a number of translations of this work. Some by folks fluent in classical Japanese. Unfortunately, they knew not one technique of the Ni-ten ichi ryu. I would ask two questions about any book on the Asian martial arts: 1) Can the author or translator speak the language fluently? and 2) Has the author or translator spent years if not decades in that country studying that art?

    I look askance at any works where the author has not spent substantial time in the country studying the art and cannot fluently speak the language. This includes authors from my own style.

    Not Spectre....Byron Quick
  11. Spectre


    Nov 3, 1998
    Kohei, (my name is John, by the way- and you?)

    I have been a part of various online communities over the last 10 years, most of them either directly or indirectly related to the martial arts. I have seen many such discussions, and I know where they lead.

    Now, for those who want to research martial arts in general, or any art in particular, there are dedicated venues.

    Personally, I would suggest that you keep what you think you know about my art to yourself, and I will keep what I think I know about yours to myself.

    Trust me when I say no good can come of this. Of course, it would be so much easier if we could point to a mat, and say, "hit it." Everything we needed to discuss would take so much less time. :)


    John Shirley
  12. sams


    Apr 21, 2001
    A friend asked the other day about learning ................

    I said learn to yield, have no aggression, ego, or attitude. You will never be defeated.

    All the best,
    Jim Samoska
    Life Member American Legion
    Life Member UDT/ SEAL Assoc
  13. BruiseLeee


    Sep 7, 2001

    The only thing I know about your art was back when ninja was a fad. I've seen a few movies and all I have are misconceptions.

    Would you be able to put together a small list of good book titles that will give me some good information oh your art? Hopefully they will still be in print somewhere that I can get my grubby little hands on em'.

    :) :confused:

    Me thanks you.
  14. alfred tan

    alfred tan

    Oct 26, 2003
    Umm, i think we were talking about Kukris here on the kukri forum :)
  15. DannyinJapan


    Oct 9, 2003
    I can only think of one really good book about ninpo.
    I have read it cover to cover about 8 times.

    "Understand? Good, Play!"
    By Hatsumi and Cole.

    Basically it is a 5 year collection of notes by one of Senseis translators.

    It is fantastic and it will take you to a higher plane of martial arts understanding.

    Bruiselee, If you buy it and read it through twice and dont agree, I will buy it from you for the full retail price.
    You have my word.
  16. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004
    Hello John, my name is Leanne. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree regarding Draegar, and of course Steve Turnbull is probably the foremost authority on ancient Japanese Military history, being hired by the Japanese government to research true history of Ninjutsu. I will search out the books you mention, thank you for the tip.

    Simon's knowledge on ninjutsu is not just theoretical study, but is coupled with having taught the local ninjutsu instructors for some 10 years. This evolved from when they came back from Japan after having trained with Hatsumi Sensei for several years.

    Regarding your art, and mine, fair comment, I meant no disrepect, My comments were only regarding the budo/bujutsu aspects and were as I stated "according" to the research I have done.

    Regards, Leanne ;)
  17. Bex


    Nov 30, 2003
    Into the controversy I the damn fool I am.

    A few points. The late Donn F. Draeger was, in his time, the foremost non-Japanese researcher of the Classical Japanese martial arts. His actual abilities as a top level practitioner are well documented also.

    What does remain a fact though is that his definition of Budo and Bujutsu is not recognised by the Japanese themselves. This has been pointed out by several highly respected practitioners and researchers.


    With regards to the qualifications of those who have revised the old budo-bugei definition, they have all spent many years learning and studying the koryu. They have teaching licences themselves. Many of them have also spent years living in Japan. Their credentials are in no way inferior to the late Mr Draeger-many of them in fact knew him personally.

    Donn Draeger died in 1985. History is a living discipline and it has moved on since then. There are some exellent western authorities on classical Japanese martial arts writing and teaching now, people who have attained full teaching licences in koryu.

    People like Dr Karl Friday and Professor William Bodiford, who hold bona fide academic positions in Universities, Dave Lowry, (who has written some remarkable books on his own studies), Diane and Meik Skoss, (Diane has edited three books which are the most accurate and up to date studies of the classical traditions in English bar non), and last but not least, Ellis Amdur, who has written two superb books on the subject of martial arts, (including one on the koryu).

    The above list is not complete, but it does cover some of the main people alive today who ARE recognised as western authorities. I have the greatest respect for the late Mr Draeger, but his books are out of date. Worth reading, yes, (I have the 3 set series already mentioned), but not as up to date as the Koryu set published by Diane Skoss.

    What would I recommend? The aforementioned books edited by Diane Skoss. These contain chapters written by and about many of the leading schools and figures in the koryu.

    I can also recommend Dr Friday's book, Legacies of the Sword, which has already been mentioned by Byron. This book gives a detailed overview of the training methods of the Kashima Shin ryu, one of Japans oldest martial arts schools. Above and beyond anything else I've seen, this book shows what a classical Japanese martial arts ryu is about.

    Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions, by Ellis Amdur will also provide a lot of useful information for anyone wanting to understand these traditions. Mr Amdur's other book, Duelling with O'sensei, is a fantastic insight into how and why people practice martial arts. He runs Edgework, a company that specialises in dealing with training LEO and others how to deal with mentally ill and dangerous people. See:

    Autumn Lightening and Persimmon Wind, detail Dave Lowry's personal journey in the Yagyu Shinkage ryu. Superbly written, these make great reads. Lowry is a writer by profession and is a highly entertaining author. Incidentally, Dave Lowry once wrote an article stating that the Go Rin No Sho was largely useless to anyone without the background in Japanese sword work.

    Regarding what is taught in the Bujinkan, I dont claim any expertise, but I do have some good sources. Some of my close friends were training in Japan during the 1980's in this school. That it was well respected then was shown by the people from other schools who came to pay their respects when Hatsumi Masaaki opened is new dojo.

    The ninja side of the art is considered controversial in regards to verifiable history. Some recognise Hatsumi and some do not. Personally it is of no matter regarding practicality. I've seen and felt enough of the taijutsu to be personally convinced of its effectiveness.

    As for the actual ninjutsu/shinobijutsu side, some of it could no doubt be practiced by any fit person. Some of it is going to be more specialised, requiring a certain physique and gymnastic ability. So what? The taijutsu is the core of the art and that is what is fundamentally taught.

    At the end of the day, effectiveness boils down to the individual. A sensible person does what works for them. That is why I have moved further towards the Chinese martial arts. It took me a while to realise what works for me. Each person should suit themselves also.

    Given that people will generally favour what works for them, their opinions will follow that bias. There isnt a right or wrong approach that covers everyone. Do what works for you and remember that just because it is the right answer for you, it may not be for someone else.

    Understanding and tollerance. Remember what happens when we forget about it.
  18. Spectre


    Nov 3, 1998

    The first of the two comments from "me" preceding this was written by my close friend Byron Quick- he signed it.

    Personally, history is interesting...but I'd rather be training. ;)

  19. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004
    Hello Bex,

    I fully take on board what you say about people like Dr Friday, etc etc and we shall endeavor to get copies of the books you mention. Would appreciate it if you could email myself (or Simon) with book titles etc. I'm sure that once we have read them and digested them, they will potentially replace Draegars works in the syllabus as more up-to-date versions.

    Thank you very much for your valued view points, I will certainly have a look at the weblinks you have pointed out.

    I personally am still very much a "beginner" in terms of Martial Studies, but I'm keen and willing to learn. I expect to make mistakes and comments that will not necesarily be in agreement with others, but thats all part of the learning process and the debate in Martial arts that has been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years. Very few people have the same opinion, what a boring place the world would be if we did!!!

    Thank you once again. Regards, Leanne :)
  20. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004
    Spectre, me too... i'm off to do that now!!

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