the khukuri in combat

Discussion in 'Himalayan Imports' started by DannyinJapan, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. BruiseLeee


    Sep 7, 2001
    I'm sure the same stuff happens on knitting forums. Such and such yarn is better than this brand or the age old acrylic vs. wool debate. In the end it doesen't really matter. What it all boils down to is, can I make a sweater and will it keep me warm? Who taught me how to knit doesn't matter if I can't make a pair of mittens.

    It's easier being the village idiot, but that's my job. However, there is an opening for assistant to the village idiot. :D

    Back to more important things such as eating my bag of m&m's :)
  2. Bex


    Nov 30, 2003
    Shakespeare's fool more like...
  3. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    Bruiselee's about as dull as a razor.

  4. Spectre


    Nov 3, 1998
    Great story, wasn't it? I think that is what Hatsumi called "a true heart", or something like that. The type of person we should aspire to be...a real "Christian". (IE- "like Christ") Shin-shin shin-gon.

  5. Ferrous Wheel

    Ferrous Wheel

    May 16, 2002
    Cold Steel was written by Alfred Hutton in 1889. Full title is "Cold Steel: a Practical Treatise on the Sabre." Plate VIII is the same target pic shown in combat manuals from 1300 to present day. Cold Steel focuses on Sabre, but also goes in for smallsword, Sword-bayonet (dagger), quarterstaff, and "The constable's Truncheon."

    The follow-up pub in 1892 is called "Old Swordplay: The Systems of
    Fence." Contains info on Two-hand sword, rapier and dagger, Sword and buckler, rapier and cloak, dagger and cloak.

    Alfred studies the classic fechtbuchen of old Europe, and borrows from the likes of Achille Marozzo (1500s), DiGrassi, Thibault, and others.

    Peter Valentine (on the web) has some good transcriptions of these works. He also does transcriptions of other fechtbuchen, like George Silver and a nice Hungarian Highland Broadsword text (calvary sabre fighting).

    Le Jue De La Hache - Translations are available, and this is a must for pole axe and other pole arm (non spear) fghters. His "directions of cut" diagram is similar to those aforementioned target pix.

    Fiore Dei Libri's classic "Flos Duellatorum" (Flower of battle) from the 1400s. The cover of this book is the same Target pic from before.

    Hans Talhoffer's "Fechtbuch aus dem Jahre 1467" (published in Prague in 1887). I think the AEMMA has a translation of this, or get a German buddy used to reading antiquated german. Covers longsword, spear, pole axe, weapon and shield variants, dagger, hewing shield, wrestling, lance/sword/crossbow from horseback, and multiple opponents.

    Joseph Swetnam's 1617 treatise "The Schoole of the Noble and Worthy Science of Defence." Written in Late Middle English, so it is easier to read than Canterbury tales. Includes 7 principal rules of defence, and much onn proper guards for an assortment of weapons.

    Fechmaster Joachim Meyer's "Kunst des Fechten" c. 1570 is good fer the pix alone, which illustrate the complex system of footwork developed for fight schools in Europe at the time. The floors are specially marked to show the places to move and step. This complex system indicates the importance of footwork in fight. Once again, Figure A shows the always prevalent "target" shown in so many fechtbuchen (even today's Special Forces Combatives manual).

    Other works which require knowledge of antiquated versions of modern languages (or a translator):
    1. Kunstliches Fechtbuch - Jakob Sutor (Old German) 1849. Greatsword, rapier, dusack, and quarterstaff, pole axe.
    2. Master Sigmund Ringneck - wrote fechtbuchen and commentaries on Lichetenauer's (1389-1440) fechtbuch.

    So, Leanne (my wife's name also), this should keep you busy for a while. Let me know what you think, or andy sources you might recommend.


  6. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004
    Hello Dan Harden, the following quotes are from two of D F Draegers books!!

    1. “Ninjutsu is a Bugei form”, Quote Donn F Draeger.
    2. “The word Shinobi was first given to the Bushi, Otomo-no-Saijin in the Omi war 593-628, by Princ Shotoku Taishi”, quote D F Draeger.
    3. “The earliest forms of Ninjutsu were called Shinobi or Shinobi-Jutsu”, quote D F Draeger.
    4. “In Koga there were about 50 chunin families, each of which had 30-40 genin serving them”. Quote D F Dreager.
    5.”Iga and Koga Ninja became the most famous Ninja”, quote D F Dreager.
    6. “The techniques of the Ninja were kept highly secret and each Ryu had many of them”. Quote D F Draeger
    7. “The introduction of western living standards (in Japan) made many aspects of Ninjutsu unworkable”. Quote D F Dreager.
    8. “Modern authorities such as T Hatsumi are responsible for most of the research being done on Ninjutsu”. Quote D F Dreager.
    9. “Ninja (genin) were of the social level as hinin”. Quote D F Draeger.
    10. “Not all Ryu found it necessary to formalise a Ninjutsu tradtion of their own. On the basis of historical evidence, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu was the first to do so”. Quote D F Draeger.

    And so and so on, etc etc etc !!!

    Dan, on the subject of “all weapons” being the same, here is a section from our syllabus, being in agreement with you I might add.

    “Some schools now practise their bladed weapon arts with sticks of around 24” long. As a consequence you will see both instructors and students using exactly the same techniques whether they have a Clip Point Bowie, Fairburn Sykes Fighting Knife, Machete, Wakizashi or a Kris in their hand. “Well whats the problem with that?” I hear some instructors say, “a cuts a cut isn’t it”, wrong !! Each one of those blade types was intended to be used in a different way, the cutting and blocking actions of a Wakizashi are totally different to that of a Machete, or Kris and so on.
    Also each one is made differently, having different constructional strengths and weaknesses which will dictate what you do and when. For example, Japanese Bujutsu schools have developed their techniques around the unique way in which the Japanese blades are made, enhancing the strengths of the Katana, and protecting its weak areas. It is essential to know the in and outs of the weapons you are using to become a weapons fighter. What some schools have seemingly forgotten, or never known is that one has to specialise with a few weapons, and one should come to know those weapons like they were a part of you. Again this is what both the old Martial Schools of Europe and Japan did, producing some of the best weapon Masters in the World, with weapon historians being in general agreement that the Bujutsu weapon (not Budo) schools of Japan were the best, with European schools being a close second. Indian and Arabian techniques were highly regarded as well.
    On top of that to practise with wooden replicas can never prepare you for the real thing, both physically and psychologically. In my experience it is only with a quality live blade in your hand, or in your partners hand that makes you realise the full implications of what you are doing”.

    On the subject kukri in Combat if you go to Tora testimonial page you will find a recommendation for Simons kukri techniques there from a Gurkha and there is soon to be a recommendation from the Royal Nepalese Gorkha Commando instructor in close quarter combat as well, via a presentation he made to Simon.

    Cheers Kohei
  7. Kohei


    Jan 23, 2004
    Hello Keith,

    Thank you for that huuuuugggeee list!! Will try and seek them out and give them a good read!

    Regards, Leanne ;)
  8. Bex


    Nov 30, 2003
    John, it is a great story.

    Funnily enough, Terry Dobson was the first American, the first westerner, to study under Hatsumi. He introduced Doron Navon to the school in fact.
  9. PipeyCain


    Aug 26, 2000
    Spectre: Regarding you last post: Thats much better. I agree with the "true heart" Hatsumi stuff and I hope you are living the same.
    Kohei: Great response! You must have some book collection. Id like to learn more about Draeger's work. Cheers!
  10. Azis


    Dec 4, 2002
    very interesting history lessons

    But I was just wondering if there is going to be any discussion on the Khukuri in what people do what are some theories and things like that
  11. munk


    Mar 22, 2002

  12. brantoken


    Feb 6, 2004
    Can I be assistant idiot? is the training rigorious?
  13. Yvsa


    May 18, 1999
    One of the requirements is an avatar with a dood holdin a flower.:p :D ;)
    And Charlie Chaplin style feet.:rolleyes: :D ;)
  14. munk


    Mar 22, 2002
    Who's the guy who held a flower on Laugh-in? I can see his face....

  15. Ferrous Wheel

    Ferrous Wheel

    May 16, 2002
    what!?!? In a thread titled "the Khukuri in Combat"? Unheard of!;)
    heee ehee

  16. Drdan


    Dec 24, 2003
    Henry Gibson.

    Dan :)
  17. spiraltwista


    Nov 29, 2002
    Well Kohei,
    You certainly seem to hold your own, when it comes to
    your martial arts knowledge & sources!

    I know my knowledge of these skills doesnt even start compared to you & many others on this forum, but I still want to see what Dan Harden comes back with, if he can!
    Unless he disapears as well!

    Perhaps he will start with "a freind of mine who almost wrote the book your talking about but has a different name, thats not on the cover, says!" etc.etc.

  18. Dan Harden

    Dan Harden

    Jun 3, 2003
    Spiral writes
    Well Kohei,
    You certainly seem to hold your own, when it comes to
    your martial arts knowledge & sources!

    I know my knowledge of these skills doesnt even start compared to you & many others on this forum, but I still want to see what Dan Harden comes back with, if he can!
    Unless he disapears as well!

    Perhaps he will start with "a friend of mine who almost wrote the book your talking about but has a different name, thats not on the cover, says!" etc.etc.

    I’m glad Kohei’s knowledge of the martial arts impresses you. I’m quite sure that says something........
    You will pardon me if the knowledge expressed and ability to quote from a book leaves me a little dry.
    I liken this to the kids quoting “Hagakure” from their only source material…..“Ghost dog” the movie.
    And thinking they have an understanding of the mindset of the samurai class. While not having the stomach, time nor the interest to read something like Budoshoshinshu-equally light but more mainsteam in its view. The former was a simplistic, radical and extreme view of a soldiers job that was in many ways preparatorially mundane.
    The later? I guess discussing the "deep secret" of getting to your post-watch on time escapes most people- which explains why they show up at the dojo late... heh heh

    Anyway, I think you misunderstand the issues here. The subject is deeper then an opinion expressed in a single work and a surburan white kids quoting it. Stating Draeger’s supposed opinions about the Ninja here in 2004 from a book he wrote in the early 70s’ does not even begin to cut it. Draeger wrote those books as part of his on going research into the Martial arts of Japan which later expanded to include his own theories of a cultures influence on its fighting styles and the inverse; how fighting styles influences cultures. This theory was pursued and supported by several indigenous cultures that became part of his studies. This pursuit led him to the formation of hoplology.
    Perhaps you missed the reference, But I stated that proper respect was due the author and I wanted to get personal responses back from his fellow researchers who walked with him and wrote with him. Several of whom are authors and one who is currently researching his book. I’ve sat and talked into the wee hours with them and trained with them and I stated clearly that it might take a while to respond. That was just a few short days ago. Quoting from early work in a book when the author is no longer around may due for those with limited understanding of the material. Perhaps that is as far as you would like to go?
    The works that induded the "ninja" references was just that "early work." More research has been done and theories developed and/or dropped in the ensuing years. Funny thing about books. You write them and then you move on, discover more, flesh out earlier theories-sometimes abandoning earlier ones altogether. But the early works remain for forever and you can live to see your own words thrown back at you. If you happen to pass on-hopefully your work continues
    Don’s early works on the Bugei of Japan
    “Classical Bujutsu”
    “Classical Budo: the martial ways of Japan”
    “Modern Bujutsu/budo”
    “Comprehensive Asian fighting arts”
    were lauded for their ground breaking information to a western audience -but there was quite bit that reflected personal views and definitions that were not completely accurate, as well as burgeoning research that was not even done by the Japanese at the time.

    Our young Kohei is repeating information from one source that has been updated by many, refuted by others. Were she to use the same reference material to explain the use of the phraseology of Bujutsu and Budo and its clear distinctions as outlined in those same books she would be greatly mistaken as well.

    Now, we can all listen to that, and you may laud her ability to throw out a few quotes from a singular work if you so choose. However, the use of those particualr terms and the clear distinctions that Don used to “help” his western audience is anything _but_ accurate.

    But I shant let that dissuade the many people who have picked them up and quote them all over the net and in Dojo across the land. The use of the terms, as with many things Japanese is grey and is not defined the way they are used in the those same series of books. Kohei may also quote the references to Aikido, and to Iaido as well. They do not come close to Dons later views of both as conveyed by his close personal friends. But so be it.
    He was an extraordinary gentleman by all accounts, and a pillar of each and every Caucasians future forays into the martial arts of Japan. Chances are that no one , myself included would be in TSKSR if it were not for his footsteps we followed.
    You could add to your reading list his research into the arts of Indonesia as well.
    “Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia” Draeger
    I might also suggest The three “Classical warrior traditions” books by the Skosses (friends and fellow researchers of Dons)
    Koryu Bujutsu
    edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books).
    Sword & Spirit--Standard Edition
    edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books). edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books).
    Keiko Shokon--Standard Edition
    edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books).
    Meik can expand on the relationship and research done by the group of them in Japan and the later work that followed

    The excellent book
    Martial Musings
    by Robert W. Smith
    Has references to Don and the relationship with the author.

    I would also suggest Ellis good works
    Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions
    by Ellis Amdur (Edgework).

    Last the series of Dave’s works from Autumn lightning to the present
    Traditions: Essays on the Japanese Martial Arts and Ways
    by Dave Lowry

    I would add some translations of earlier works translated from the original Japanese
    Samurai: An Illustrated History
    by Mitsuo Kure (Tuttle).
    Legends of the Samurai
    by Hiroaki Sato (Overlook).
    A Way to Victory
    translated by Hidy Ochiai (Overlook).

    Anyway, this will fill in gaps and offer a larger picture of the arts of Japan instead of the “reference here and a reference there” version.
    I will still respond to Kohei’s questions of ninjas from her…sempai.
    But in the manner it warrants. In the Internet era I realize this “I want it now” attitude-but correct information from as close to the source as possible seems fitting.



    I thought You might be intered in this as well.
    It is from one of the above referenced authors Diane Skoss. Her husband was a close friend of Don who acommpanied him in his trips and who spent 26 years in Japan training in Koryu and many modern arts as well. He is fluent in Japanese an quite familiar and converscent with the source material. The opinion offered herein more accurately reflects the current mainstream view.
    Visit the Skosses site at they are deligthful people. She-more than he..heh heh Buys some books!Ask for an autographed copy! Or you may buy them at Barnes and Noble

    Ninjutsu: is it koryu bujutsu?
    by Diane Skoss
    We've been accused of unreasonable prejudice against the popular "ninjutsu"-derived arts. Simply put, it is our opinion that modern-day ninjutsu and ninjutsu-derived arts are not koryu bujutsu. They are not based on a continuous transmission of technique and culture. covers koryu bujutsu. That doesn't mean that arts we don't cover are not worthwhile. We just don't cover them. Given that this is my site, I think that is my perogative.

    Let me say this again, since it seems some people don't understand. does not cover ninjutsu! The art and those derived from it do not fall into our definition of the koryu bujutsu. Period. If you want to define the koryu differently, that's fine. Just don't ask us to change our definition, which is based on considerable first-hand experience and decades of research in Japanese source material. Please do not trouble yourself to write us to try and convince us to change our minds. It will not work.

    We have made every effort to be as low-key as possible on the issue of "Is ninjutsu koryu?" We do not stress or advertise our position. That's because we sincerely believe that if your training is working for you then it is none of our business. However, if you come to us and ask whether we consider ninjutsu or the Bujinkan-derived arts to be koryu--well, we can only provide our honest opinion.

    Please, please, please don't waste your time or ours. We really are familiar with the material relating to this issue; unless you happen to be a Japanese scholar who delves into ancient makimono, you won't turn up something we haven't seen and considered. Again, just because we don't share the same opinion doesn't mean that we are not all doing useful and good training. Yoroshiku onegaishimasu. I really appreciate your consideration!
  19. spiraltwista


    Nov 29, 2002
    Hi Dan,
    I think if you actualy read Koheis posts you will find she is a 25 year old women, not a man & having seen you and others criticise her learning process & accuse her of embelishment. I think shes done well to stick it through & state her case, rather than giving up on this forum.

    I must admit having seen your past flashes on this forum, I thought my slighty ridiculing post may incourage you to repley rather than if this thread had slipped into the abyss of the archives.

    Glad to see it worked!


    ;) :D

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