**Which Is the Toothiest Steel?**

Discussion in 'Blade Discussion Forum Archive' started by EQUALIZER, Apr 3, 2000.

  1. EQUALIZER

    EQUALIZER

    254
    Aug 14, 1999
    With all of the new stainless and high carbon out there going into production knives, I was wondering which steel can be sharpened hair popping sharp and get a [​IMG] "toothy" edge.

    I'm guessing that it would be one which normally has large carbides and an even grain structure. I used to think that the higher the C content, the more "bite" that it will have. Now I think it has more to do with grain SIZE in a high C steel. Am I correct?

    If anyone knows the answer, I'd appreciate comments on both stainless and plain high carbon. -Thanks-

    robert

    jpfo.org
    --------------------
    "Reasonable gun law?.....There is no such critter!" --EQ

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    "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword let him sell his garment and buy one." --Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36) See John 3:15- 18


     
  2. mgkrame

    mgkrame

    155
    Oct 6, 1998
    My experience is limited to ATS-34, 154CM, D2, A2, 440V, and 440C.

    By far, D2 (all Doziers) takes the "toothiest" edge on my Sharpmaker(somewhere in this apartment, lies the tip of my thumb to prove it [​IMG]). I can get a better "shaving" edge with everything else, but the D2 handles my real world cutting chores better than anything else I own.
     
  3. Guest

    Hairpopping sharp and thoothiest is a contradiction.
    If it's REALLY sharp, it has a very fine straight edge, like a razor.
    If it's toothy it has microserration along the edge an will cut certain things better
    (tomatoes, rope, e.g.) but willl not "shave" as good as a "straight" edge.
    [​IMG]

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    D.T. UTZINGER
     
  4. Cliff Stamp

    Cliff Stamp Banned BANNED

    Oct 5, 1998
    CPM-10V, which would probably be outdone by CPM-15V. It will take a high polish and still slice well because of the huge amount of Vanadium carbides which will contrast strongly with the steel matrix.

    -Cliff
     
  5. Gwinnydapooh

    Gwinnydapooh

    641
    Jan 20, 1999
    Boye dendritic?

    That's just a guess, I am in no way qualified to answer. Also, it now occurs to me that it's Mr. Boye's weird casting process that makes the steel "dendritic" so while one kind of steel may work best, probably the same effect can be achieved with several types. So I still haven't answered which steel is the toothiest--on second thought, just ignore this post. [​IMG]
     
  6. Jeff Clark

    Jeff Clark

    Apr 27, 1999
    I'm hoping to try dendritic (cast) D2 soon. I can get D2 shaving sharp, but with wear it stops shaving and gets noticeably toothy.
     
  7. Normark

    Normark

    Nov 7, 1999
    Hey Guys....

    Damascus is pretty Toothy!!

    ttyle Eric...

    ------------------
    Eric E. Noeldechen
    On/Scene Tactical
    http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
    Custom made, High Quality
    Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
    Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

     
  8. EQUALIZER

    EQUALIZER

    254
    Aug 14, 1999
    I've never had the opportunity to try D2. There's almost a consensis here. Now to think about it, I agree with you, Zut & Zut. In most of the blades that I've sharpened, the edges that take a very fine edge are not what we'd say, have bite. The microserations are much smaller I believe. One exception is in the catagory of high carbon straight razors. They tend to act, as Jeff Clark explained, taking a fine edge and getting toothy as they dull...as long as the edge is straight. I think the carbides line up uniform when touched up and stroped, then with use, Ouch! Gotcha! as the old commercial used to say. They still cut great.....just look at my face afterward [​IMG] . I think at some point, the carbides get misalined, yet still rough cut certain things very well, if not hair popping sharp. The high C content and thin well heat treated german blades amplify this quality I think. This is all theory mind you, so use some salt with my comments.

    I recently read that CPM-10V has a higher C content than D2 or most high C steels if my memory is right. Cliff, do you know if this steel is too brittle to be good in a thin blade and do you know of any production knives in this? It sounds pretty new, so I'm guessing that most are more familiar w/the D2 and probably have no experience w/10v yet.

    Thanks for the responses. I've been wondering about this for quite a long time.
    -----------------
    "Reasonable gun law?......There's no such critter!" --EQ

    ------------------
    "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword let him sell his garment and buy one." --Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36) See John 3:15- 18


     
  9. Roger Blake

    Roger Blake

    707
    Oct 11, 1998
    I think you can get both a shaving and toothy edge by first sharpening for a shaving edge than taking a few swipes back on the coarse stone to give it some teeth.

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    Roger Blake
     
  10. Cliff Stamp

    Cliff Stamp Banned BANNED

    Oct 5, 1998
    Equalizer :

    [CPM-10V]

    My 10V blade is from 1/8" stock, with a full flat grind and a distal taper. The knife is .01" thick behind the edge which has an included bevel angle of about 30 degrees. Awhile ago I became curious as to what it would take to damage the blade so on purpose I hit a few staples while cutting up some cardboard. This did nothing to the blade in terms of visible damage. I then put rows of five staples through a piece of cardboard and layed it on a piece of wood and sliced them all in half. The edge had blunted in the contact regions, but not chipped.

    Finally I simulated one of the hardest stresses that I though was likely. I again put a row of staples through the cardboard but this time I let it hang over the edge of the board and did a hard pull down across the staples. After a few such cuts I did see a few small chips in the edge about 1/3 - 1/2 the width of the edge bevel. Basically after the initial staple-blade contact the staples were twisting out of the cardboard and thus the 10V blade after penetrating into the staples was experiencing a very hard snap across its edge which I think was causing the chip. I repeated this with a D2 blade with a slightly thicker profile (.015 - .02") behind the edge and it chipped out similar.

    As far as I know there are no production CPM-10V blades.

    -Cliff

    [This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-05-2000).]
     
  11. Dave P

    Dave P

    10
    Nov 21, 1999
    One thing to try is to polish one side, and leave the other coarse.
     
  12. EQUALIZER

    EQUALIZER

    254
    Aug 14, 1999
    "Awhile ago I became curious as to what it would take to damage the blade so on purpose I hit a few staples while cutting up some cardboard."

    Hillarious Cliff! Always looking for new ways to evaluate blades! I hope you don't do the same evaluations with automobiles. Leave that to the crash test manicans....I can see Cliff heading down a deserted farm road littered with pot holes at break kneck speeds to see if the Subaru Forester suspension holds up as well as the Chevy Blazer..... [​IMG] ......to top out the evaluation, we now go to Cliff's favorite fishing hole. But in order to get there Cliff w/traverse the rocky creek bed!....Oh, the horror!! [​IMG]
    heheheheh.....
    I remember an old Sampsonite luggage commercial back in the 70s. It featured a big gorrilla in a cage slamming a suitcase up against the walls and throwing it across the room, jumping up and down on it, while beating his chest like King Kong...Was that YOUR pet gorilla?

    In all seriousness though, your tests are a great asset to this web site. With out you, we'd be in the dark about so many mysteries. I hope you get paid for your evaluations, at least get some free knives out of it. The staple test was quite resonable and is a big concern for normal daily use.

    From your description, it sounds like CPM-10V is, for all practicle purposes, no more brittle than D2 in those samples. It also sounds like it shouldn't give any problems in normal daily use as long as one doesn't pry or drop it on concrete tip down. Thanks for the description of your tests.

    Dave,
    I've never thought of that. I'm going to give it a try on various knives and check the results.

    ------------------
    "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword let him sell his garment and buy one." --Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36) See John 3:15- 18


     
  13. Cliff Stamp

    Cliff Stamp Banned BANNED

    Oct 5, 1998
    Equalizer :


    That was me, I forgot to shave that morning.

    Yes, and based on what I saw, the only way to chip out the edge would be to do very hard slices. The stables when hit would fly up to 6' or so away. In general I don't cut cardboard that fast unless I am using it for blunting stock trying to intentionally wear down an edge.

    One of the main reasons that I became interested in the fracture point is that I was wondering about the possibility of CPM-15V as a blade steel. I knew that it would be more brittle than 10V, but this of course is not that useful unless I knew how brittle 10V was.

    Pretty much so yes, I would give 10V a slight advantage as I have seen it hold up where D2 chipped slightly (sub visible, less than .1mm depth) on gritty material. This is the way that CPM rates it on the spec sheets as well.


    -Cliff

    [This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-06-2000).]
     
  14. EQUALIZER

    EQUALIZER

    254
    Aug 14, 1999
    Many thanks, Cliff, for the great information.

    ------------------
    "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword let him sell his garment and buy one." --Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36) See John 3:15- 18


     
  15. tom mayo

    tom mayo

    Jan 27, 1999
    well I am NOT going to argue with cliff, but the question certainly needs to be qualified, as you can sharpen any knife to be very toothy...and obviously the ones with the most hardness and toughness will last longest.....so back to the original question. toothy...how...sharpened and polished toothy? sharpened with a fresh 220 grit belt??? I think we are seeing a revolution in knifemaking steels these days, and a lot depends upon the usage....so my question is....we need a bigger question!!

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    http://www.mayoknives.com


     
  16. Cliff Stamp

    Cliff Stamp Banned BANNED

    Oct 5, 1998
    Tom :

    As you noted, if you sharpen the edges leaving a coarse enough finish all steels will slice very well. I would call a steel aggressive if you can put a fine polish on it without it going slick. That means that the crystal structure itself must have an aggressive nature.

    -Cliff


    [This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-07-2000).]
     
  17. EQUALIZER

    EQUALIZER

    254
    Aug 14, 1999
    What Cliff said so well is what I meant to say. For instance, I used to have some old tree brands and bokers back when they used to use a super high carbon content. Can't tell you how much or any other details, but you could sharpen them on a course carborindum, or a hard Arkansas and get an edge with heavy microserations. Of course the hard A would put a finer polish on it but either method would shave and hold a good edge (although it was probably well below 60 rockwell), easy to bring back too. The "surgical stainless" of the time could become very sharp if the blade was thin enough, but had a far finer carbides. Couldn't get the heavier microserations in that stainless even if using a course stone. The rough/serrated edge would easily dull if brought about by the courseness of the stone as opposed to the grain structure/ carbides. I hope this made some sense.

    ------------------
    "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword let him sell his garment and buy one." --Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36) See John 3:15- 18


     

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